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Pushing my way out of breakeven -- Looking for some feedback (21)

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This will be fun

I've noticed a lot of what you pointed out already (running multiple camps, lots of traffic sources) and it all applies to pops as well.

There are obviously people doing really well on push alone, so it must be possible. So before anyone convinces you to try FB, Native, etc. I'm interested to see how you'll break out with this.

How aggressive are your creatives/texts and are you cloaking?

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lol definitely trying to avoid the shiny object syndrome. The various threads on FB look very tempting....

I asked a few of my AMs and they confirm that people are doing very very well on push alone and as ad buyers (not list owners) as well. My angles are pretty aggressive and I avoid cloaking for now as I feel my landers are generic enough that people don't have to steal mine to run a similar angle.

And... as of writing today I went from +50% to now negative -30%, seems like some of the geos I'm testing woke up and gave me a ton of traffic that unfortunately is not converting... (and it was looking so good yesterday). Will update of what I plan to do in the next few days. Aggresive goal is to get out of this rut by month end.

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I'm the same on cloaking, not worth it for pops, especially not al my level. I only mention it because @erikgyepes uses it for his creatives and he's doing really, really fucking well on push. Hopefully, he can weigh in.

What self-hosted tracker are you using? Sounds like a pain in the ass

Backbutton scripts are weird. I know I should use them more often. But I end up removing a lot of them simply because I like the console in chrome's dev tools to be completely empty when testing and don't bother putting them back in. Some people make bank on backbutton scripts alone (by sending them to monetizer, etc). But that's a luxury, I think. I figure concentrate on getting a winning lander+offer+geo first. Then worry about bb scripts afterwards.

That camp with 45% CTR and 581 conversions seems worth working on to me, but maybe there's something I'm missing

Scaling is the most difficult thing in the fucking world and I cannot comment on it until I feel I have done it successfully. @vortex Amy has way more wisdom than I. All I can say is the vertical/horizontal scaling thing. @matuloo prefers horizontal scaling (other networks), less chance of lander burnout and/or being ripped. I prefer vertical because I'm a stubborn idiot. But PUSH is a weird animal. And you've tried both so you know what is best for you.

I work with WL and BL simultaneously, which seems counterintuitive, but it seems to help speed up the weeding process and helps me beat CPA algorithms with vanilla CPM for pops. Push CPC+CPA is a joke as far as I've tried. But. Push CPM+CPA may be a different story. Speaking of which, what is your goto traffic source for pops? ZP? Propeller? Mega? Rich?

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I use Funnelflux, not sure why its dropped off the radar these days. Its good for a complex funnel though I was thinking of switching to something like RedTrack as some of the features seem pretty good. The problem is I've built a repository of code that interacts with the funnelflux API and not quite ready to re-do all the work on a new tracker. Though I'd be keen to hear if anyone saw significant improvements after switching trackers? Especially since I'd be looking at a cloud solution.

I think the backbutton is usually a positive contributor (either by disabling it or by redirecting it). Reckon you should test it since if the performance impact is marginal even if its just collecting push subs it could lead to a longer term income.

Ah... this is my camp that I use to test new ideas usually because I can't really scale it up (I've tried) as its a low paying SOI, with limited cap and in a relatively competitive geo. But I have been running it for the whole year now so can't complain though maybe I should go back and try to scale it again hmm...

100% agree. I'm trying to follow the 80/20 rule so just working on the traffic sources that give 80% of the traffic. Admittedly its still the 20% that is given my profits but got to keep trying I guess.

I'm guessing you mean push. If so I'm using ZP mainly as its got the most traffic and the most robust API so allows me to code a bunch of stuff to save a bit of time.


Anyways today has turned out to be a blood bath as I don't have a single positive camp today. Oh well at least I got through most of my to do list and hopefully the new funnels will give me some direction on how to turn things around before the end of the month.

Meanwhile I'm also thinking how important is day parting for buying push traffic? I know people talk about it but I haven't focused too much on this in the past because:
1. Most traffic networks manage their list to maximize clicks hence I normally get less traffic at random hours already.
2. Hard to pinpoint which hours work best. My SOI camps (with most data) usually work around the clock with CC submits being lumpy (though primarily in the morning).

Thinking I might limit this to stop the bleeding first and re-open it up once I have a steady flow of positive camps.

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Hi,

Let's have a call and discuss it. We'll see if there's a painless way to switch to RedTrack. Can't promise but we'll try to help

Aksana, RedTrack.io team
skype live:a.rudovich

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This is kind of how I feel on most days when I manage to start the day off green and can’t wait to tweak/launch a few things then after that end the day in a sea of red. So instead straight into it I thought I'd post here first.

Since my last update a few things happened:

• The horrible offer last week had postback issues on the advertizer side so I got all my delayed postbacks turning the camp from -80% -> +5%! phew.
• Nearly got enough data on my funnel tweaks
• Re-tested a few old camps that I’ve stopped in the past
• Started 2 new geos since I was running out of stable green camps
• Watched a few interview videos on people running push

So far I've learnt the following:

I suck at survey landers? -- Not sure why but I have never ever gotten them to work despite seeming that majority of people seems to be running them. I've tried everything I can think of but the CTR and conversion rate seems to be sub par compared to the other angles I run. Well at least I now feel more confident in my old funnel.

Check old camps before starting new ones -- I started up some old camps for test but with slightly different targetting. Majority of them bombed but 1-2 flourished. Hopefully this sticks as I plan to continue with this.

Focus on pub id selection -- One of the new camps I run shows that 1 pub was bringing in 90% of the conversions at a healthy ROI. Hence it made me think that I really need to make sure I do good whitelisting. Thinking that I am bidding too low which means I miss out on some sources that would be profitable but at the same time I know if I raise the bid the bad sources would suck up the budget. Thinking on how best to deal with this issue.

My autobidder not quite working -- I have an autobidder that adjusts based upon competitiveness of bids. However results have been subpar. Could be my rules but I suspect the issue is that your bids are "lagging" i.e. you are bidding on what you got paid not what you are going to be paid. So I plan to take the approach of just bidding what I'm comfortable with, if someone muscles me out then so be it. C'est la vie.

Day parting trends -- dug into this more, generally feels like people convert bit better in the morning. Hard to find a statistically signifcant result as its hard to have enough data per hour over a long enough timeframe at my current size. But plan to implement this.

Final thing I need to do is:

I've written out a nice set of rules to cut campaigns, traffic sources etc. problem is I keep adjusting them or worst ignoring them. Most common one that I tend to ignore is cutting non-performing traffic sources especially if my overall camp itself is profitable since I just assume it needs more optimizing since it is working on other sources. Going to revisit this as well.

Okay so with the above in mind I plan to spend up to 2 hours a day, once a day to check stats/make fixes. This should hopefully keep me from harming myself. Will re-evaluate how this goes after a few days.

For records sake:


So 2 hour begins... now.

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I feel like I'm the only one replying here when there are a shit ton of other affiliates running push who could be weighing in with way better thoughts. But I guess they're busy making money, so you have to deal with my shitty opinions. Sorry.

Same. I think it depends on the geo and the offer, of course. But surveys suck donkey dick for me.

I do this. Usually because my AM gives me a bump or the advertiser liked my traffic and wanted more. Also, when I'm bored and nothing is going well, I'll throw some cheap traffic at ZA even though I fucking hate that geo. One of my current top 3 is an old campaign I dropped months ago.

This is the only thing ZP does somewhat OK. Having separate bids for each individual target is great! Overwhelming as fuck, and tedious, but the alternative is most other sources with a blanket bid for everything. I have noticed you can set individual bids per zone on propeller in the dashboard for Pops (push too maybe?), I have never got it to work well.

There's also that one zone that has a large % of traffic and gets a bunch of conversions but also is mostly red and is impossible to get green... and you don't want to cut it, but... I hate that fucking zone.

Yes. I noticed this from my limited push experience. I actually paused the campaign and waited until 6-8AM in the target geo before unleashing the push. This makes sense, as most networks just vomit out the push notifications as quickly as possible and don't charge CPC till it's clicked, even if it's after they roll out of bed and your awesome ad is waiting for them.

Anyway, aside from your current 3-day $-200 red status (I got your beat! $-398.37!) you seem to be heading in the right direction.

Let's hope this 2 hour thing works out

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So since the last update things have been rocky due to:

• Delayed conversions from the advertizer making me think that I'm losing a ton of money when I'm losing just a bit
• Some of the conversions not passing through AFTER I've optimized meaning I had to re-do a part of the work again. Ugh.
• One of my top offers was actually converting on just 1 single source, so once I saturated that and got less traffic from there the offer bombed and I only realized it too late
• Experimented a ton on duplicating ads, targeting specific pubs to try to squeeze $$ out of it. Instead I got $$ squeezed out of me.
• Stupid mistakes on ad set up probably cost me around $150 spend e.g. spending it into an old link that doesn't convert...
• Various tracker issues that has not been fun

All in all typical affiliate life in which nothing seems to go easy and smooth sailing

Anyways my stats since 16 Sep (as it seems my previous post image expired or something):


Overall stats:



Camp stats:



Performance but have been steadily improving in terms of ROI. My spend has stayed roughly around the level I like it and so now its just more about turning this into a steady green and then working on ways to either grow my ROI or grow my ad spend and keep ROI constant (I have a enough cashflow to float a bit more adspend).

And so to recap what I've learnt lately is:
Camps I don't touch and let it run its course has been doing the best which made me realize...

• I'm much better at running SOI for now because the low payouts mean decision making is not affected by the $$$ involved. As such I will be refocusing on SOIs primarily.
• I also try to wrestle with traffic sources that don't work for a bit too long. I know I have a working funnel and know my numbers, should just mass test offer and move on to the next thing.
• Easier to find a winning camp on a small high quality traffic network than a large traffic network (because quality is never as good) unless you have a decent global WL.

Therefore - Plan of action for the week:

1. Mass test 3 new geos for SOI offers (with good camp) and keep anything with -30% ROI or better after initial spend
2. Optimize existing cc submits that are showing promise and only look at 3 day+ data for these.=
3. Run a small experiment on pop/domain traffic with working camps to see how it fares
4. Try to check stats at most once every 3 hours... (okay this is going to be hard)

Hopefully from here on out life will be like this:

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I'll go ahead and age myself by admitting that I know that gif is from Rainbow Brite. Ahem.

The interesting thing I've noticed on Pop, (and that adsterra CPA case study a few weeks ago backs me up), is that running a successful SOI, even if marginally profitable, can then use the same zones to do a CC submit and still make decent conversions. I wouldn't be surprised if this works with push too. So definitely something to keep in mind.

That being said, SOI's can still work, as you've noticed. And:



While the CC submits always look more impressive, guess which took less effort, but still got more profit?

These are rookie numbers, sure, but you get the idea.

Anyway, sounds like you're on your way to crushing it. Keep at it!

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I actually experimented with this a while back and surprisingly the payout for my SOI was better. Could be I didn't have a significant enough sample size but the stability of having SOI in the mix made life easier. For sure CC submit is the way to go for mid $xxx+. But I have an idea I'm testing on to monetize the backend traffic that works better with SOI, will share more later if this works out.

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So as we wrap up Q3, I reflected on what I've learnt and things I did good and bad this quarter.

The good: Spent $30,000 in ad spend, got tons of credit card points and did not send myself to the poor house yet.

The bad: Didn't make any money for the time spent.




But in all seriousness the best camp I ran thus far was SOI. It took the least time to manage, decision making was not made under duress (i.e. a -50% ROI day isn't going to mean I need to eat McD for the rest of the week) and was overall the least stressful (the volatilities were much more bearable as well). Of course the returns were not as attractive by far and dealing with cap space can be a pain but for now I rather start my Q4 with a win for now.

As such I intend to buck the trend and work on SOIs for the start of the month and just maintain the various CC submits I have ongoing. The main difference will be that I intend to optimize my funnel better such as tracking repeat visitors to redirect them etc.and squeeze every single penny out it. So far its brought me about a 10% ROI uptick already which meant that I can scale much more. Also I assume driving enough conversions might mean I can negotiate payout bumps as well as ask for customized offer pages which should give me an advantage.

Anyways just to set up some Q4 goals:

• Realistic: Test 15 different geos for SOI (not sure if there is that many feasible ones left for me to test with offers but we shall find out)
• Unrealistic: Reach $3xx+ a day by end of the quarter (unrealistic because this is uncontrollable but why not dream a little)

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Tracker hell continues... Currently stats look like this:




But I've looked at my aff network revenue and I'm actually breakeven it is just that over 100 conversions are either delayed (though some might be missing at this rate since I wouldn't really be able to notice). I've already identified a bunch of problems and provided as much detail as I can. Even though client service has been nice and trying to help, but seems like no one knows what the hell the problem is... Really need to switch trackers at this rate before I lose my sanity. FML.

On a brighter note I think I'm solidly in the green today but the problem with the tracker is really sucking the joy out of it. Anyways think I just needed the rant. Back to work. Will provide a more concrete update later in the week.

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So when you think your tracker can't go worse you wake up with a mysterious $100 spend of -100% ROI that matches nothing in the traffic source. Then wasting another 30 minutes to check links and stuff on other traffic sources without a clue... argh.

Hence I'd post stats but given the inaccuracy of it all (I've been resorting to mental math adding things up since cost tracking was some what accurate). So will update stats once I port to a new tracker sometime this week hopefully as I've decided on who I'm going with and if anyone wants to discuss tracker am happy to do so as I just spent a bunch of time last week sending lists of questions to sales reps.

On the plus side I've managed to find a winning camp which is in the green for around 20%+ ROI consistently, which isn't bad with everything else around breakeven or better. So have managed to stay in the +$xxx range lately but these things can change quickly in the affiliate space so definitlely not counting my chicks before they hatch. Anyhoo am going to leave this short and boring. Hopefully provide a more interesting update next time around.

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Hey Sushiparlour! It seems like you’ve been focussing on several different verticals, maybe it’s a good option to focus on just one at first, for example, dating offers, and focus on improving your quality/performance there. For dating, pop and push (network) quality is generally on the lower side, because the users are not actively looking for the service (compared to clicking a banner or searching on Google). Banner and member area traffic works so much better.

The strategy to focus on just a few large traffic networks is a very good one. The same goes for focussing on a select number of networks. Running with a large number of networks often results in headaches when it comes to managing cashflows for example. Next to that, working closely together with 3-4 AM’s enables them to get familiar with your experience and traffic, which will result in them being better in recommending offers to run.

Given most Dating offers have multiple LP’s (as the “perfect girl” highly differs per target audience) it’s often worthwhile to do a small split test. Your AM’s should be able to tell you the top-performing ones across the board that are worth spinning in. Also, don’t forget to ask your affiliate manager for a bump on offers, they are usually keen on bumping offers if this will result in more traffic for the network. Telling your AM how an offer performs for you is always helpful for them.

Ps. Like Jayboy said, indeed running a CC submit on a proven SOI zone usually works, we can confirm that’s the case on push most of the time as well! Good luck!

- Advidi

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Wow nearly a month since my last post. Have been very busy with the following:

• Switched trackers at last (this was a very painful process)
• Worked on some new code including a nifty little bot to provide more accurate and timely stats
• Coming up with a repeatable blueprint to what I'm doing
• Onboarded a friend to help manage and grow my camps (which is why I needed the blueprint)

As you may guess things are going well. Have managed to "push my way out of breakeven" and making low $xxx/day at this point (have done it for most of this month now so doesn't seem like a fluke).

This is a good start but am aiming for hitting those $x,xxx+ days which is why I reinvested my time to putting infrastructure in place for greater growth. The plan now is for my new onboarded partner to manage and scale the existing vertical + traffic source whilst I explore other new possibilities which is why I'll be attending AWA this year. So if anyone wants to meet up for a chat and share ideas, drop me a PM.

So given how I've achieved my goals for this follow along, I don't think I'll be updating this anymore. Hence I thought it would be fitting to end the note on how my tracker still shows I'm breaking even (since I can't track certain revenue on there so guess you'll have to take my word on it for now :P):





PS. I'll probably share tips/case study at a later date of how I managed to be profitable, am just waiting for stats to come in.

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Congrats! I knew it was only a matter of time for you, based on your stats and experience. Looking forward to those case studies!

Hope to be joining you soon

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Been keeping an eye on this thread! I KNEW you could do it! And I'm very impressed it only took you a month!

Please do come back to update us when you reach stable 4-figures!



Amy

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Any update on the case study @sushiparlour I am interested on how you turned this campaign around. What is the most important factor that turned your campaign from red to green?

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Hey I posted the case study in the push traffic forum here: https://stmforum.com/forum/showthrea...26%23128181%3B

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Thanks @sushiparlour I haven't read the whole case study yet.

So basically yoy made the camp green by building your own push list? Were you able to make the traffic networks profitable?

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So currently excluding push revenue we are also net profitable. Problem is that most of the time you will find 1 winning camp but also a the same time have to test another 8 loss making ones so that your overall net ROI is fairly low (average single digits ROI or lower teens). This might work better if you run CC submits but as you can see from this FA it's not my forte so I stay away from it for now.

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