Ramblings (or is it ravings?) from a former poker pro. (Long) (23)
Ramblings (or is it ravings?) from a former poker pro. (Long)
Mods feel free to move if this isn't the right place. It seemed to be the best fit.
**Disclaimer: This got really long winded. I didn't make a TLDR.
I recently joined here and am in awe at the vast amount of information available. While I can't add anything of value in this business yet I may be able to offer some advice from a former job that I think is very applicable.
Until it got shut down in the US a couple years ago I made my living as an online poker player for 6 years. I may even have seen a few usernames that I think also came over from that industry. Regardless as I click around and read the forums it strikes me that there are quite a few similarities.
I still read the business forum on the main poker forum and actually a media buy thread there turned me onto this whole world. Why I never considered or thought about it before is beyond me. Maybe because I don't think I have ever, not once, intentionally clicked on a banner or pop up. Funny thing is the poker world was structured the same way the IM world is. The players, some of them made serious money, but above them in earnings were the successful rakeback affiliates and above the affiliates were the poker sites themselves. If I had to do it all over again I'm not sure I'd play many hands at all except for networking and exposure purposes.
Many of the issues and challenges this forum seems to face ring a bell with me. Due to this I'm going to go over them and detail (the best I can) what I did to deal with it.
I'll probably forget a few as I'm typing this but will add them as I think of them.
In no particular order:
Losing money:
People always asked how I could lose so much money at times money and sleep at night. The truth? Often I didn't sleep. This was a result of playing far above my bankroll though. I knew what limits to play to have a small or nonexistent risk of ruin. I knew that when the bankroll got lower I should move down limits. I knew that the martingale strategy seldom ended well for people. Regardless of all of that I hardly ever followed what I new. It led to some catastrophic losses that kept me up for days.
Eventually I got a decent handle on it and there was comfort in it. You played within your bankroll and the money didn't matter. It isn't money. Your bankroll is a tool you use for your job. If you can't detach yourself from it being “real” you wouldn't get very far in poker. Detach yourself but at the same time try to retain the value of a dollar. It's too easy to loose that value when we make a lot of money, particularly at a young age and the results of that lose can make you miserable later.
If you get used to spending 500 a day and the money stops rolling in you need to be able to go back to humility quickly. Just because you pick up bar tabs for your friends and feel “baller” when rolling in it does NOT mean you have to keep this up if it becomes unsustainable. Your friends won't like you any less. Well, maybe they will but if they do you don't have good friends anyway.
All of that said, if “playing” within your bankroll, I don't think there is such a thing as losing money in the IM world. You always gain knowledge and information. It may not always be evident or obvious at first as to what it is or how to best use it, but it's there. Take solace in that.
If you can't leave work on the computer when you get up it will negatively affect your life. Relationships will be hard. You will be distressed and it will be noticed. Its one of the hardest, yet most important things I think.
Burnout:
It sounds like this is an issue caused by both poor results and great results in the IM world. Poor results are obviously discouraging and great results can easily lead to taking it easy, thinking the money will always come in as easily.
Dealing with poor results is one of the hardest and yet most important skills I needed. Towards the end of my time playing, as the games got harder and winrates got smaller, it wasn't all that unusual for losing streaks that lasted weeks and even months. Playing your A game throughout a losing streak is almost impossible but playing anything else could be catastrophic. Ultimately I found the best thing to do (and hardest) was walk away. Turn off the computer, go outside, go spend time with friends (preferably who have normal shitty jobs...it always made me sad for them but happy for me), take a vacation. Do whatever you need to do to clear your head. The computer and the game (be it poker or IM) will be there later. If you're good at what you do the results will still be there, probably much better than before.
I actually would play many more hours when getting crushed than I did when winning. Chasing losses almost never worked though. I seldom was playing well enough to make it worthwhile.
I found dealing with great results a bit overwhelming as well, particularly early on. Back when I used to make stupid amounts of money I only worked like 20 hours a week. We all thought it would never end or that our hourly wouldn't get worse. Honestly the best thing I found to do is get out in the world a bit. Take a look at how shitty a lot of people have it (often by choice). Let that drive you to work harder. If you've scaled your campaign and are making 1k a day, awesome. What about 2k a day? Make it happen. Maybe it won't but certainly don't stop trying. I sure hope I don't when I make it that far.
Dealing with success:
This one is tricky. As people start making more and more money, well past “normal” levels, life looks differently. People look at you differently. Maintaining friends who don't make much money can prove difficult. You start to do more expensive things. Nice dinners, nice vacations, etc. It's nice to be able to do these things with other people but if your friends are stuck in 30k a year, 9-5 jobs they often can't join. Paying for them isn't usually sustainable (or going to end up well) but I found there is a nice comfortable line. I chipped in more, often times without making it known, and was okay with that as long as I kept it reasonable. Example: when we would go out to eat (particularly at nice places) I'd try to be the one to collect the tab money. Back when my friends were broke college kids the tab almost always came up short. Probably because as tabs get high people tend to short the tip due to sticker shock. I'd happily make up the difference in these cases. I also would help out with vacations. I tend to be generous to a fault so keeping a lid on this is difficult for me. I still struggle with this to this day. I made less and less money but have a hard time not being generous to a fault towards those I care about. Ultimately you may have to lose some old friendships over this. You'll need friends that can pay their way with your newer, more expensive life.
Friends you had before the money are one thing. Be cautious about new friends particularly if you flaunt your money. Many are often there for the wrong reasons after they find out. Girlfriends/boyfriends included. The best way I found to deal with this is keep it relatively quite. Don't tell people exactly what you make. Be vague. If you have nice things it's hard to hide but you can help yourself by not being cocky about it.
As for what to do with your money. Save as much as you can. Reinvest in yourself, stick it in a mutual fund, diversify into other businesses (but not if you don't know what your doing). Plan as if the money you are making today will be gone tomorrow. Do you have enough in the bank to be comfortable while in that transition? If you don't you should really work on this.
Keep a division between work money and life money. Keep different accounts. Your work money is your work money. If you don't make money one month that shouldn't leave you having to dip into your bankroll to pay your bills. This leads to distress and poor results. Sure, this is hard to do, it takes time and patience and a mindset that is hard to acquire however in the end it's invaluable to do.
Humility/Honesty:
This sort of ties in with dealing with success however is hugely important. Many of us may never succeed at this IM game. Others will crush it for a while and then for various reasons don't stay ahead of the curve, flounder for a while, and possible get into serious debt because they didn't alter their spending or have savings. Some may crush it forever. Regardless don't plan on crushing it forever. Just because you made xxx,xxx last year does not mean you will do so this year. Never stop working and learning. Don't get too comfortable.
Most importantly be honest with yourself. We usually know somewhere in our minds when something we are doing isn't working and yet we lie to ourselves about it. We justify why this time will be different without actually doing much to make if different.
If you lose your roll get a job while you rebuild. Not many who have had success will do this quickly because people always think tomorrow will be their big break. However the longer you wait the harder it gets and the deeper in the hole you end up. The first step is the honesty side. Do you actually what it takes (and some results) to make it at this game in this particular moment. Often times this is a money issue. No money in the bank? Get a job. It doesn't matter doing what, just something. That's the humility side. Particularly if you did well at one point it feels like admitting defeat. Look at it instead as a tactical retreat. Regroup, get some cash on a sure thing, and attack again if you really think you can make it.
Answering the “what do you do for a living” question:
While I don't know if this is similar I imagine it is. “Oh you play poker (or do IM) that’s awesome (followed by endless questions)”. “Teach me how to do it”. “If I give you money will you play for me”. Etc Etc
It got to a point where I just stopped telling people I played poker. Not if you got to know me but if we just met, no way in hell do I feel like getting into it with you. Poker (as I imagine IM is) is misunderstood. People aren't experienced with it or knowledgeable about it (although they often think they are). This leads usually to what we view as stupid questions. The only way to avoid this? Don't bring it up.
Productivity:
This sort of ties in with a bunch of the others. Basically my initial issue was keeping focused while working at home. My dogs, my girlfriend, the internet, all things that kept me from getting in good hours. I honestly don't have an exact cure that worked for me here but something just clicked at one point. Various motivational videos/posts helped from time to time. I used to line my monitor edges with sticky notes. I actually think it may have been watching my mother crush poker while I floundered that fixed my work ethic. She would be the first to tell you I was a far superior player yet we played around the same time frame and she made much more in earnings simply because she had the life experience and put in the hours.
Guilt/Worthlessness:
I imagine most of you have experienced it, guilt. Something you did in IM didn't sit quite right with your moral compass. While probably not as prevalent in poker it was there as well. I ultimately may not be the best to give advice on this particular topic because of philosophical beliefs. Regardless, it ties in with honesty, just be honest with yourself. At the end of the day only YOU know what you can stomach and still sleep at night. If that isn't much that's totally okay in my book. If you have no morals that's also totally okay to me. Just be real about it.
By worthlessness I mean despair over providing value to society, being fulfilled if you will. I actually think this comes on to the highest degree in the middle of the success scale. People start to look for value in what they do. Ultimately in both poker and IM I don't think there is a whole lot of value to society in what we do. I don't give a shit though. At our root humans are first selfish. Grab the money and use it to set up good situations for the only things that matter most. Yourself, your family, your friends. Probably in that order (although I can make an argument for swapping family and friends and view it fine to do so). Taking care of those things provides more worth to me than anything else I can imagine. It's not exactly that I don't care about all the starving kids in Africa, but I don't. If I had huge amounts of money...yea maybe I would care a bit more and try to help other causes but until my family and I are extremely comfortable I am a selfish prick much beyond those three arenas. I guess local community would come next in line.
There was a really good FTP MSNL reg named Nomed. Is that you?
One of the best threads I've come across in a while 
Mad props man, can totally relate to what you've said here.
great post, thanks for the share
Good post.
I was a online pro from 2005-black friday, and before that played constantly starting back in the very beginning on Planet Poker in late 1998
I look back and wonder what I was thinking using up all that time playing a game. I wish I had found IM sooner.
I tried to teach my mom poker, but she sucked.
solid post i used to play on ftp and can relate to pretty much everything you said. welcome!
Originally Posted by allthegold
Originally Posted by htgred
I didn't exactly teach my mom. When I first started she was very against it. I had lost like 1k on a joint credit card I had with her. I had the money in the bank to cover it but she was upset. There was the usual "don't do this anymore", "okay I won't", and then I just kept trying to find ways. I was at a boarding high school at the time and had talked her into letting me play small stakes tournaments while I was home on (I believe) Christmas break. She had watched a little bit here and there. I didn't think anything of it. A month or two later we were talking on the phone and she said something along the lines of "I'm winning". I was of course confused. As it turned out she had decided to play some poker of her own. It kinda took off from there. We lived in the same house for a bit while we both played. We bounced some ideas here and there. I spent a lot of time sweating her and giving advice. Ultimately though she had considerably more earnings than I did because she put in the hours, didn't take ridiculous shots, and didn't tilt as badly. She had the same demise I did though, maybe even worse. The games got harder and her earnings plummeted.
Wow awesome post Nomad! A lot of good tips that can tie in to the IM world. I suppose pretty much in anything we do in life there is a similar guideline for success. Welcome and I'm sure a lot of the things you learned from poker can apply to IM.
I'm glad some Stackers are finding it useful. A lot of these things are likely known by many of you but I've found are often forgotten. Sometimes some of my best poker information and advice certainly wasn't new or groundbreaking but just basic fundamentals on theory that tend to get forgotten in the quagmire. You are never above getting back to basics and sometimes it's the easiest way back to profitable.
Here's a few more categories I added to my growing Word document on the subject. I'm sure I'll have a few more to follow soon.
Dealing with/losing money to shady networks:
There appear to be some less reputable ad networks. People get screwed out of large payments. They get their campaigns ripped off. They have networks pretending they don't get the conversions. Some people in IM tend to get very worked up over this. It isn't exactly wisdom but I don't understand wasting your energy on worrying about this after it happens. I've heard IM called the wild west. If IM is the wild west god only knows what poker was. Smaller and shadier networks also did shitty and shady things in poker. Usually though the games on those networks were much softer since they did appear shady and kept many smart players from getting involved. That isn't to say smart people shouldn't ever get involved in shady networks. Those who did knew (or should have known) the risks. Higher returns, higher risk.
Those who have made the decision in the IM world to work with networks that don't have a good reputation or invest to heavily in a new network should also know this.
Either way when these things happen certainly let the community know. Often times pressure from large forums can get your shit handled in these situations. At the end of the day though don't have any stake large enough to cripple or ruin you invested in shady networks or campaigns and you should be able to sleep at night pretty well. So you lost some money where you had either made bank for a long time or at least had the potential to do better than anywhere else. That sucks but we probably all knew the risks. Make a note, learn a bit (or, again, be more honest), and then don't dwell or let it drag you down. Continuing forward on a network after a problem is really a case by case basis of weighing the particular risks and rewards.
“Play money”:
Money in a poker account somehow seemed less real to me. Considerably so (and I guess rightfully so). I could lose 25k in a night and somehow it didn't bother me as much as losing, say, 3k at live poker. This sort of ties in to bankroll management and dealing with networks however I found it best to never count my earnings before they were solidly in my bank account. This does not mean take huge gambles with the money but rather don't spend it before you have it. If you make 100k in commissions one month don't go out and start spending that until the check clears (and it's debatable even at that point if you know anything about how a check actually clears a bank).
I suppose the exception to this is reinvesting in yourself. If you make that 100k, have it in a network account, and want to use it to scale heavily scale a campaign that is killing it then by all means do that. It sort of remains in play money land in that case.
great thread man! I'm glad my posts encouraged you to get in and start thinking and give feedback.
I actually didn't get a chance to thank you since my account there got banned from something else. So thanks for what is an awesome thread and nice to see ya over here!
Hey
Seems there are really many former poker pros in internet marketing... I should read business thread at 2+2. getting thoughts from smart poker guys is really useful.
As for me, i was making about 55k/year working on biz dev in internet company. For Ukraine, where im living its quite good money. But then, internal situation n company changed and there are wasnt opportunities to make money (except basic 24k) and to develop myself. I used grinding small stakes few months while working at day job and decided to switch to make living by poker. The biggest mistake - i didnt have enough money n reserve. And during my 5 months of poker pro carrier , i was making only about 1k/mo in average. Also i felt very stressful and tired. For me - poker money was the hardest money i ever earned. Not because of a lof of time i was spending on ps and 888 but because i hadnt reserve money anymore and it was making me extremely stressful (i also have to take care at least a bit of my GF finance as well). So i started to search the job during old channels and started again with the basic 24k/mo. But thanks for hard working and luck im doing okay now again. Still playing poker. Lost about 700$ yesterday and dont fill comfortable coz of it :-) but thats okay, lets earn money on mobile marketing.
Hi everyone,
This is the OP from this thread. I had canceled my subscription and unfortunately couldn't get my account back. It's weird to look back at how long ago I was considering giving this a go. Unfortunately I never got off the ground for a number of reasons. This time around I'm laid up with a broken leg for at least 5 more weeks so it's go time!
These posts went over well the first time so I figured I'd bump them for those who hadn't seen and start to add some new content for those that have. Here is a topic that I sort of danced around in previous posts. I've also seen it echoed elsewhere (often in success threads). It was plenty important in poker and probably even more so in AM.
Staying ahead of the curve:
This one can be hard. Especially for new players/affiliates. Many of us probably have some talent. Unfortunately for us some of us also maybe got hit with the good side of variance early in our career. We were wet behind the ears but started to crush it early. Most things we touched turned to gold. We had visions of living the high life forever.
Until our world started to come crashing down. The sick thing about poker is due to variance and standard deviation there can be players who played near perfect game theory poker....and they never could win. The converse is also true. Players who played like total shit....and raked in the dough. It can take huge sample sizes to see a true win rate. Especially as win rates get closer to 0. The less your edge the more subject to variance you are.
It seems a bit less important to be aware of this in AM than it was in poker but the take home lesson is the same. No matter how good things are going keep pushing to be better. Find the hottest, newest traffic sources and learn them. That doesn't mean drop your winners right now. It just means know that your winners won't be around forever and the ones who really make it already have their foot in the door elsewhere when the ceiling falls out. Instead of spending, lets say, 12 hours a day working on POF (if that's where you are doing well) spend 10 or 11 doing that. Then spend the other 1-2 hours learning adult, or mobile, or email (whatever you feel can be your next big step).
Beyond learning new verticals get your hands on whatever of value you can read. With forums this is sometimes difficult. It's often hard to separate the noise from the value. This comes with time. The more you try the quicker you can scroll and pick the worthwhile posts. Spend less time reading the off-topic forums. Spend more time reading the strategy. Find the valuable blogs from the industry titans. Stay on top of those.
Perhaps most importantly develop a network of friends. Skill and success levels can vary as long as everyone brings something of value. Bounce ideas of each other. Help each other. The most successful poker players (not surprisingly) tended to all hang out and talk together. Go to the meet ups whenever you can. Generally the contacts you can make there will pay off 10 fold compared to what the trip cost.
I was not great at all of these when I played poker. I hit it big (by my standards at the time) early and thought I had the magic carpet ride to riches. By the time I learned these lessons I was way behind and never quite caught back up. Hopefully I can prevent myself from the same mistakes this time around. Hopefully someone can learn these lessons the easy way as well.
Cheers,
Evan
Welcome back Evan!
What happened to your leg?
It never ceases to amaze me, the similarities between poker and AM.
People get lucky with AM, and strike a big campaign early without really knowing how they got their. On the flip side some people systematically built out campaigns, followed all the rules, but didn't get anywhere due to changes out of the control.
Everyone has an edge. They just need to find it, then it leverage. It could be as simple as knowing another language, deep knowledge of a niche, finding a unique traffic source etc etc.
I'm a tech retard, and I'm not to flash with numbers either. So I stay away from any tech heavy campaigns. I know that I am strong with coming up with angles, and deal making. So I focus on coming up with angles, then make them exclusive to me...or benefit from others using them.
How are you going to approach AM this time around?
Thanks! I really dropped the ball the first time around by some combination of bad luck and fear of failure (probably mostly this). I never got it out of my mind though. It certainly affords me the best chance of getting the "poker" lifestyle back. Good earnings, freedom of schedule, own boss, etc. This time around with much more knowledge.
I broke my leg hiking the Appalachian Trail early this month. I was on an overnight camping trip with 7 friends. I accidentally knocked a precariously drying shoe (which wasn't mine) into the fire. As such I lent my shoes to that person and figured I'd be okay hiking out in my camp booties. Turns out the traction wasn't what I thought. Broke the Tibia and Fibula all the way through. Plates, screws, the works. Thankfully the EMTs were able to reach us with an ATV. Otherwise a long, painful day would have been in store as my friends tried to carry me out.
This time around I plan to start out with some niche dating offers on POF. Except for a few objections it seems like everyone agrees this is the best place to cut your teeth. I'm just waiting on network approvals to start browsing offers. After some success and experience on POF I'd like to start pursuing adult traffic, mobile traffic, or both.
I'm also a tech retard but it's as much for lack of ever trying to learn as it is inability. I'm starting to learn basic HTML, become familiar with Adobe Muse, and Photoshop. It seems the giants end up outsourcing a lot of this later in their time in AM but I certainly want a solid foundation.
And of course, for photographic humor.
The boot:
The booties:
Me, happy (and also in shock):
Hahahah you really hated the Appalachian Trail didn't you? That smile just makes me think that was your plan all along.
Cool read man. I was an online pro from 2005- 1 yr after black Friday.
Sooo many correlations between this and online poker.
the one big difference that I absolutely love is the lack of variance. Remember those 50k break even streches where you did everything right and just got 2 outted over and over. with this , its complete(ish) information, and if it's not working, it's because you need to do it better. Poker is soul crushing at times haha.
had my first 1k day last month and been going pretty steady around. still figuring shit out. I have my own offer so gives me a bit more room to play but still so much to learn
best of luck!
Heh. No, I was quite enjoying my time walking under my own power. It was a pretty badass ATV I got to ride on top of though.
Bshimmer,
Yea there seems to be a lot of us that made the journey over. Don't even get me started on the breakeven stretches towards the end. Freaking brutal. I do love that aspect of AM. There is always something you can do to better yourself, or at least things to try. Make a change to your poker game it it took 100k hands to really know if it was a good one. Don't miss that side of it. That's for sure.
Hell put me back to early 2000 and knowing what I know of poker now I probably would have hardly played a hand. The big rakeback affiliates were the ones making the serious dough.
didnt mean to bump and old thread. im a current poker pro. nice to know that there are peeps of the same background in STM!
Current poker pro eh. Live or online? You looking to get out or diversify? I can only imagine that the games have gotten even tougher in the past couple years since I stopped. I suppose that's anything though.
As I mentioned I never put in the work to stay ahead of the curve with poker. I must say though after actually launching some campaigns AM is far more fascinating to me. Albeit quite foreign from the tech side.
With poker it was easy to deposit, play, and get some action/rush of winning and losing. AM has proven to be a bit more of a drag initially. There is no instant rush when trying to set up your server or learn your way around tracking software. There isn't even much of a rush when you launch your first campaign. Then it's just a matter of waiting. Not hitting F5 all the time is proving difficult. Not bothering to stare and ponder insignificant amounts of data is proving difficult.
That said once the conversions start trickling in it bites you. I'm not really profitable yet but I hover around a few bucks profit and a few bucks loss for a day.
Best of luck.
Edit - Feeling accomplished after figuring out even a pretty basic tech hurdle is pretty nifty too!
online. definitely looking to get out. it's a cool job as a 20yo but when u get older, it's just a dead end job with dwindling opportunitites. games are definitely getting much much tougher, amout of work you gotta put in is just not worth the returns at midstakes at least.
i definitelly get the same feeling as you about not feeling the push. learning curve is steep. i guess its the same when starting out in poker, you roughly know what are the fundamentals but from then on, you're like stuck in a multidimensional realm where u can grow in any direction on any axis but u never be sure what exactly is right.
hope to hit the pot of gold soon though!
Rio,
Agreed. Your mindset sounds wiser than most 20 year olds. Nice to have you on the Skype group. Now lets make some dough!
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