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New Year, new journey (36)

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Hello everyone,

I'm Hector and I tried for almost a year the AM bussiness.
Did some google search ppc and in the past 3 month or so I started with pop and this year ... push.
I want to (and I will) start a follow along with pop traffic based on vortex 40 days guide, but this one is about push and based on twinaxe guide.

First, thanks a lot for the STM community, a lot of useful information here and of course special thanks to vortex, twinaxe and matuloo they always try to help and that is really really important for newbies like me.

Not let's see what this FA is about. I want to be very precise and I will try to give informations day by day.

VERTICAL: Daiting (I don't like this but I think it is more difficult to run this one than others so better to learn it the hard way)
PAYOUT: around 2$ (well not to spent to much money to test offers, LP and so on)
GEO: US (I know it is not tier 3 or 4 but I think the cost of the traffic is not that different. For example ZA is more expensive than US.)
CostType: CPC

The FLOW is SOI (I want an easy flow so I can get lots of conversion so I can learn how to optimise).

I was thinking to test at least 10 offers of the same type (Daiting, SOI, US), 2 TS (for now just one but I will try another one), 3 LPs and DL (the offers have a prelander that is very similar to the LPs that I could find on adplexity so the only LP that I could use are some very simple LP (I will show some img)), 4 creatives

LandingPages:

LP1


LP2


LP3


Creatives:
Same big image and icon with some variation text.



06.01.2020 (First Day)
This are the states from Voluum


This is a very similar offer but I had to run it in a different campaign because I had to run it only on mobile.


And this are the states from the TS


In this stage I was looking to find a good offer, a good LP and a good creative. I had some green offers but it is too early ... maybe it is some lucky conversions.
Now I do have a question maybe somebody can help me: Is this a good CTR or not (1.65% and 0.98%)? (I mean based on the vertical, geo, and I can provide other information no problem).

07.01.2020
(I will show the states from 06.01.2020 and 07.01.2020 so we see an overall of the campaign)

Well not so good as the first day. I added another offer that was accepted later.
At this point can I cut some offers? For example let's say the first one is having a payout of 1.6$ and it got to the half of the test budget (I read somewhere twinaxe suggest this) and no conversion yet, can I cut it?

The second campaign I let it a little longer and got some conversions, but the campaign is still in red -60%. What do you think about this offer? Should I continue with this and try to optimise?


Many thanks in advance and I will post new updates.

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Hello,

Good luck with your first campaigns.
Try to avoid US and other tier-1 geos when starting. There is more competition and it will be more expensive to test.

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Thanks for the reply jeremie.
When I was running some campaigns in google ads the difference between tier 1 and tier 3 geos was big. Sometimes 10x higher for some keywords or even more.
For pop traffic I can't say it is the same. I found that some tier3 countries have more expensive traffic than tier1.
This is from PropellerAds traffic estimation.


US = 5.67$




DE = 3.35$




ZA = 13.68$




KE = 8.32$


For push ... I just started.

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1) It is not only about the ad cost. It is about the overall profit. For one thousand views, you may have a higher click rate and overall better conversion rate in some geos with less competition.

2) You looked at the max CPM rate, which is currently very high for some reason on ZA, AND on PropellerAds (not the case on other networks). I prefer to use the average CPM, or optimal CPM, which reflects better the long term rate.

3) ZA is not tier 3...

Maybe @jaybot can comment more on the rates and recommend you a few geos to start with for pops, as i don't run pops at the moment.

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This is very true. But why the price in country1 is bigger than the price in country2? Is it because of the competition? I think that the price in any TS is auction based. So probably in a country like KE there is now some people that are bidding really high and in DE not so many. Is my assumption correct?

I don't think I understand. Is this something that I can see in a TS or do I have to calculate?

Well I asked my AM for some well converting offer from tier3 and 4 and gave me from ZA and KE so .... But I wouldn't say that it is tier1 also.

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There are people bidding higher. It may be because they found an offer converting really well in this geo, and want to milk it before it ends. But as you are looking for the top rate, the TS might have got only limited volume at that rate, which is not representative if the average rate.

This is information you can find in propellerads, in the top menu. There is an option that says traffic chart, or something like this. It opens a list of rates by country. I don't have access to PropellerAds at the moment. Will look at the link on Monday if you don't find it. When it is not, your rep at the TS can usually provide you with stats.

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I found the traffic chart in propellerads and it looks like this:

Pop traffic



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US optimal CPM is 1.9$
DE optimal CPM is 1.2$
ZA optimal CPM is 2.3$
KE optimal CPM is 1.7$

Here it seems that KE is most expensive than DE (!?)

Push traffic


Here US is the most expensive by far

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You should start to run campaigns.

Doing so, you will understand better the price dynamics per geo. And you will be able to see why a geo is cheaper than another. You will figure out for example that a geo is on average clicking less on ads and converting less than another, leading to lower CPM all the time. Or you will know that a particular geo is cheaper than usual at the moment and that's a good opportunity to purse.

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On the first day I started this campaigns I got an ABUSE REPORT from Amazon Aws where I have the LPs hosted. Did anyone got something like this? Should I worry?
I know that because of this vertical (DAITING) things are a little bit more difficult (can get bans and so on).

This is the first email from Amazon


I responded that I don't see any problems with my LPs than I got this answeer from them.

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I already run campaigns and for sure you understand better the dynamics of price per geo like this. But all this cost lots of money and it is good to have some guidelines when you don't have a lot of experience. A guideline like this traffic chart and this optimal cpm rate.

For ex in this case I would stay away from ZA in POP traffic because it is almost the most expensive and the payouts of the offers are really low (at least the offers that I got access to). Is my assumption correct?

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The highest bids are misleading and you dont need to pay much attention to them.

The thing is, there might be some buyer who has some highly targeted campaign that they are running during a specific time. So for example, iOS clicks, specific carrier, during 2 hours in the prime time. So even though this buyer would only get a fraction of the traffic from a specific GEO, their highest bid might be shown in the traffic estimator.

ZA is one of the GEOs where there are specific offers available form time to time, mostly in the carrier billing vertical, that can work really well. It might be the case now, that's why the bids are so high. But again, ignore the highest bid, set the bid that makes sense to you and see what kind of volume you will receive. That's what matters more.

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ZA and KE both suck horse cock. But especially ZA.

ZA traffic prices are high because the majority of offers are pin submits (or 'mobile content') with really nice payouts, especially on Vodacom. We're talking $4 payouts for this 'Tier 3/4' country. That's higher than most SOI offers in DE which is a Tier 1 country. Pin submits really only convert on 3G traffic. So you'll see the suggested bid on propeller for 3G is like $16-18 CPM, which is insane for any country. But if you check their traffic charts (not their shitty thing on the create campaign page), it's actually like $5 for 3G, which is still too fucking high for a RON campaign. But if you switch it to wifi, it magically drops to $1.6 CPM for optimal (and $5 for Max). This is becuase PIN submits don't convert well on wifi and PIN submits are the only offers worth running in ZA.

There are a few SOI in ZA which can convert on wifi... and they pay like $0.17.

Kenya is kinda the same, just replace Vodacom with Safaricom and adjust the price by a few dollars.

Competive as fuck in these geos, I would avoid when starting out. You can get lucky and catch a wave and make some profit randomly, but it's hard to reproduce.

Most veterans I know avoid ZA entirely.

If you asked your AM for Tier 3/4 and they gave you ZA and KE they are either an asshole or they are lazy. Or both.

Can't blame them though, many AMs are busy trying to keep their super affiliates crushing $5 profit a day on offers in the US and honestly don't know or care about lower tier geos.

For Tier 3-4, you are better off manually searching for new offers with low payouts and testing them yourself than asking most AMs.

Or, try Haka or Traffic Company offers, as those support pretty much every geo available and they tend to focus on really obscure, Tier 3-4 geos.

Good luck!

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Couldn't agree more with @jaybot

ZA and KE are often recommended by AMs but level in competetiveness is beyond the threshold.

But. This can be actually good for you.

If you find any golden offer by yourself in exeotic tier 3/4 geo, guess what?

AM probably won't recommend it to anyone even when you crush on it.

Good luck with your campaigns,
plutus

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I feel like I am misreading this. They are working hard just so their super affiliates can make $5 a day on an offer?

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Lol.

K got deleted during the obligatory curse word injection.

$5k per day profit.

Or more.

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Thanks for the clarification. Otherwise that was oddly one of the most soul crushing comments I've ever seen in AM.

"Yeah, IWantToFly finally made Super Affiliate Status, making $5 a day."

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Yes you're right, the highest bids are not that important. I didn't think about it like this.

I checked this also in Propeller and this is so true

ZA (mobile, 3g) -> max CPM 17$ ... optimal CMP 6.5$ (top3 most expensive)


ZA (mobile, wifi) -> max CPM 2.3$ ... optimal CMP 2.3$ (still expensive as it is in top10 most expensive)


ZA (desktop) -> max CPM 1.5$ ... optimal CMP 0.65$ (quite cheap somewhere in the second half of countries)


Can it be that tier1 countries are immune to pop traffic? It is just simple as they don't convert like tier3 or 4. And I'm not talking about the offer, it is just the traffic, that popup that appears and you know it is another stupid offer that you don't care or is scammy/spammy/viruses or whatever.



I see where you go. I was thinking the same. The idea is to go where the competition is not so high.

Anyway I will stay away from ZA. I don't have the experience to run anything there.

Thanks

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Different markets do behave in a different way for sure. I wouldn't say that tier1 countries are ignoring pop traffic all together, but it's possible that many of the users there "have seen it all" many times already, so they might be less likely to respond to such ads.

It's also tied to what verticals you are running. Just to give you an example, it's easier to get app installs in less developed countries, because there are still many people getting their first smartphone NOW. While in the tier1 countries, most users have had several smartphones by now and they already have their favorite apps installed and do not install that many new ones anymore.

On top of that, tier1 geos are way more regulated than tier3-4. So misleading tactics that advertisers still user in lower tiers are already banned in the most developed GEOs, hence the offers don't convert that good anymore.

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Really nice that experience guys try to help you here ... so ... many many thanks for the advices

Now to continue with this FO.

I know that I started with US but I am not sure anymore that I made the right decision. After checking the traffic chart it seems that it is really expensive. But I already spent some money so I will continue with some offers that looks promising.

I also found some offers for MX and RO but this offers are CPA based. So basically you create an account on the offer site and you can do some stuff but you do have to pay for a premium account for the full access.

Now my AM told me that usually in 2 weeks a user convert. If anybody worked with this kind of offers how do you calculate everything? I was thinking to spend the test budget and wait (for 2 weeks or more ... I'm not sure) and see how it looks.

Back to the offers that I started with.
I had 11 offers. One was for mobile (it was recomended by my AM) and 10 for desktop.
I tried also DL but got my campaigns stopped by Propeller (They had a more aggresive LP ... some nude picture, movies).
So I was using my own LP that are very simple (I posted picture in the begining).

LP3 (the one with the fake chat) didn't convert that well so I close it.

From all this offers I stoped 7. It got to the test budget with no conversion or some conversion but ROI was somewhere over -70%.

So now I have 4 offers live.
3 offers didn't get yet to the test budget so I continue running with my initial setup.
Only one offer got to the test budget and the ROI was around -55%. So i decided to continue with this offer and see how I can optimize it.
In this phase I am not looking for profits, I just want to learn. Of course if I will have some profitable campaign it will be like a morale boost

So this are the states from the begining.


Now I read about test budget and how to calculate it and it is connected to the payout. (10x payout)
Also some optimisation like cutting placements also in connection to the payout. (2x payout)

But I didn't found something in relation to the quantity so to say. Nr. of impressions, nr. of visits, nr. clicks, nr of conversions.
Because if you want statistical relevance you will need quantity ... right?

So if I take the above exemple ... is 26 conversions enough to make optimisation decisions?

If I check for ex the LP report in Voluum

Is enough 10 and 14 conversions to make a decision between LP1 and LP2? Should I choose LP1 as a winner?

Also on the creative report

Again the same question here if the nr of conversions is enough to take decisions.
But what you will choose ... the third one? It has the best CR but the worst CTR (and a bad CTR will affect the traffic as twinaxe said in his tutorial)

And on the placement report.

I read about the strategy here to cut placements. So if CPA is bigger than 2xPayout.
But for push we also have CTR ... so maybe some placements have a really bad CTR. The first one 18.789 impressions and only 116 clicks. Is this CTR 0.61% bad?

I know that the vast majority of the experience guys here don't like to give numbers because each situation is different and than a precise number/procentage is not correct.
But for newbies like me I think we need some rules, values to start with and to build on.

Many thanks in advance and sorry for this long post

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Hello STM Members,

Just wanted to say what is the progress with my push FO.
I am happy to say that I have my FIRST GREEN CAMPAIGN so thanks for the help. Lots of informations from this forum help me to get to this point.

Just a small preview of what I did.

Started this year with push traffic.
I choose one vertical ... dating
I did some misstakes ... like running in a country like US (you warn me guys), or having some high payouts offers.

I realise that I need more discipline to play this game: so I will stick to tier 3 and 4 countries and low payouts offers. Also I need to test more.

So I tested around 40 offers from different Networks. Different workflow (SOI, DOI, CPA), some showed some potential, but I got an offer that was green from the start. So I stoped testing and try to scale.

So about this offer:
It was recomended by my AM
It is a global offer
Different payouts depending on the country.
Very small payouts
Very easy flow (SOI)

This are my states from the last 3 days

Overall I am not green with this offer but I did test it a lot.
So I have 47 test over this offer ... different countries and different TS.

Can somebody give me some advice what to do next?
I have in some countries like Soudi Arabia more traffic but it is still red (very close to make it green). What optimisations can I do for this type of offer?

Many thanks in advance

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Hello STM Members,

I have a problem and maybe somebody can help me.
So I have a campaign that is working ok (it is green ... not so much of a profit ... x/day). And I am running this campaign for some days now and I try to scale it (not so much of a success).

Today my AM contacted me and told me that my traffic is bad quality. She explain to me that my leads don't convert that much on the advertisers side.
She also gave me a source Id (I think) ... something like this: faf45t72-23af-8523-39n7-af654a9acmcc ... and I should stop traffic from this source. I don't know wtf is this. Is it a zoneID !?!?

Also how can I increase traffic quality? Should I increase bid? Should I try other TS (I already use 5 TS)?

Thanks

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This depends on your setup, you are passing them this values through some token, but this looks like a campaign ID generated by a tracker. Would that be an option?

It's quite normal to get such requests from networks and it's actually a great thing that they are asking to pause just some source IDs instead of kicking you from the offer.

There are several steps you can take in order to increase lead quality. You can start with this older article I wrote, the info is still relevant : https://stmforum.com/forum/showthrea...guide-for-2017!

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What impressive progress! Wow! And big congrats on your first green campaign! It will be first of many more.

Have you tested bids? For a quick test: Clone the camp, retain the blacklist, but "unblacklist" placements that have made conversions and are somewhat hopeful (say - 30% ROI or better), set a lower bid, run that for a day. Also try to clone the camp, retaining the original blacklist, and setting the bid higher.


The affiliate network can only know this information if you've passed it via the offer link.

So first thing you do is go into Voluum, and go into your settings for that offer to see the offer link. What variable do you see appended to it? Is it {campaign.id} or {trafficsource.id}? Whichever it is, that's the value your aff manager is giving to you.

If it's {campaign.id}, here's where you can find out which campaign it represents:

On the "Campaigns" tab:




(Don't forget to click "SAVE"!)



If it's {trafficsource.id}, here's where you can find out which traffic source it represents:



Stop traffic from this traffic source or campaign, and keep running the others - keeping your fingers crossed.

Hope that helps!



Amy

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Yes, you are right. It is the campaignID generated by Voluum.


Well my AM asked me first to stop the traffic for the offer, but maybe because it was my first green campaign, I insisted a little bit and she was nice enough to help me with details like campaign id.


Thanks man, really good info, I liked your example with the restaurant and the word FREE


Thank you, it was a morale boost. We newbies need to see that ... well ... it is possible


I played with bits in the testing phase. But I did it a little bit different. I change the bit of a campaign at the end of the day (so did not clone it) and leave it one day so I can compare the stats.
After I had a green campaign I focus on scaling ... and I played with the bit also there.
For ex: I had a campaign with ROI 70% ... so I increase the bit ... ROI went down a little bit but PROFIT doubled.



Thanks for the advices.

Now I have another problem ... The offer died ... well it didn't died but they change the payout.
So my AM contact me on skype and told me that starting tomorrow the payouts will change.
First I had a list in mind of geos that in the testing phase were very close to get green ... so I hoped of an increased payout.

Well guess what ... all the payouts decreased
Some geos were excluded.
Some geos had the payout decreased 8 times.

I had like 4 geos that I was green and all had the payout decreased at least 2 times. So no chance for me there.

So my question is: Why the payouts of an offer decrease???
Well I have an ideea (Because the leads didn't converted very well ... and it was a general behaviour over the offer ... not only guys like me sending bad traffic), but I would really like to read what do you guys think.

And of course Why do payouts increase??? Sometimes I get an email from a Network saying that for offer X the payout is changed. Or I saw in Mobidea news feed different payout are changed.

So now I am again in testing many offers.
I found out that some offers are not for me ... are only for super-aff that have like 500$/day revenue.
That is a little bit annoying but yea that's life

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Looks like this was a network-wide decrease. This often happens with new advertisers who don't have enough experience with the backend monetization. So they set some payout, then realize it was too high and as a result they decrease the payouts for everyone.

They can also do this just for certain affiliate networks, as they usually enlist their offers with multiple ones. So one network can show bad results for them overall, due to the type of affiliates they work with, but with some other network they might see better results so the payouts stay higher there. This is why we always recommend to work with multiple networks and test offers with them, even though these might be exactly the same offers as you have tested already, with some other network.

This could be the same situation as above, just in opposite order The advertiser likely saw great results, so they decided to up the payout to get more volume. It could also be a result of some optimization or monetization flow on their end, that yields better results. Or a change in conversion flow that results in lower CVR but higher quality leads... there is a number of reasons here.

Yes, there is no way around this, testing is the only way to find the next good offer. As you gain experience and increase your volumes, it will all become much easier.

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Ok ok, makes sense.
Anyway I don't understand the logic behind this offer.
The offer is an in-house offer ... whatever that meens !?!?
Dating with CPL.
Somewhere around 40 geos with very small payouts (different payouts for each country)
They have 2 pre-landers: you have 5 questions and after this you have your thankyou page ... at this point I get a conversion ... after this a redirect.
On the pre-landers there is a push-subscription popup.
After this I think it is a smartlink ... but it is a general one ... sometimes I get a sweeps offer, sometimes I get an app install with some AV/Cleaner, sometimes some LP of how great bitcoin is.
So ... you see a push notification on your phone with "Hey ... Looking for a date?", and you click and go to the LP ... where you have some stupid quesitons to answeer (about ass type, and age and so on) and after this you find yourself in google play store to download an android cleaner app
Don't really understand it. Maybe is the push subscription they are after and some smartlinks revenue is also good.

Thanks

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Regarding reasons for payout decrease - based on conversations with networks in the past, here are some of the main possibilities:


1)The demand for the leads have decreased.

Advertisers/networks often collect leads via lead gen offers in order to sell them to one or more clients. Often there would be multiple clients buying these leads. If one or more of these clients were to stop buying the leads, the decrease in demand will require the advertiser/network to decrease the payout - at least until they can find additional buyers for the leads.


2)The network/advertiser's internal media buying team is kicking ass.

Usually an advertiser/network will have a monthly target on price and volume for an offer. And some networks/advertisers have their own media buying teams that are running their own campaigns for the offer, so they don't depend 100% on affiliates.

So, if their internal media buying team is able to scale the offer, that would leave less offer cap for affiliates - which would lead to a payout decrease.


3)Advertiser or affiliate network overestimated either the traffic quality that will be sent by affiliates, or their ability to monetize the leads, or both.

This tends to happen to less-experienced networks/advertisers.

Smart advertiser/networks though will avoid this issue by NOT offering the maximum payout in the beginning. This will provide a margin in order to have time to evaluate the traffic quality, so that they can:

a)Stop the affiliate asap in case of fraud or low-quality leads, or

b)Increase the payout if the lead quality, gender ratio, volume, etc. are good.

I'm a bit confused...at which point do you get a conversion?

Are those 5 questions the "fake" kind of questions on the typical dating landers? If so, they really should redirect to dating offers. Otherwise the visitor would be clicking on those questions for nothing. Answering the 5 questions would not help in collecting push subscribers (because they come after the push popup).

If you PM me the offer link I could take a look.



Amy

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Is there any chance for us to fight this internal media buying department ... because they can get the max payout.
It looks like this isn't a fair competition

Ok ... let's see if I can explain better (my english is also not soo good)

The user flow
1. User see creative (mine) on the phone ("Are you looking for a one night date") ... and decided to click.
2. The offer LP (I do direct linking) is shown.

And after this there are something like 5 quesitons or more. I don't remember exactly ... but things like If you can keep their identity a secret or you are not looking for a serious relationship, what age do you look for, what type of body and so on.
After this still on this LP ... (I checked the domain so no redirect yet) ... a thank you page with a continue button ... at this point I get a conversion.
Also at this stage a popup to collect push subscription will appear.
3. Redirect to a smartlink ... different offers like AV, betting, finance ... anything.

I PM you with the offer details ... thanks a lot for the help

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This is a common setup.

The lander with those rules (keep it a secret etc...) is the standard rules landers. The thank you page appears once they enter some info, right? So that would be a SOI offer.

And the rest happens to increase the overall revenue generated... some subscribe for the push list, some will convert at the smartlink. These offers are selected based on past data that the smartlink setup has access to, they try to match the best offers with the traffic that converts the most with them... based on OS, connection, device type, Geo etc...

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I've looked at the offer you've sent via PM (thank you!) Are you SURE you get the conversion at the "thank you" page? I'm pretty sure that dating lander is just a "pre-lander" - a pre-sell page to the actual offer(s).

I agree with you that it's strange - the dating pre-lander actually redirects to non-dating related offers when you click "CONTINUE".

I'll ask my AM at Zeydoo about this and get back to you!


Haha I'm afraid there's nothing we can do there as affiliates.

Yes there are disadvantages to being lower in the food chain, but there is less work and risks as well.

Of course we can stand to make more money more easily if we actually owned the offer - and some affiliates have tried and some have succeeded while others have failed - but this would take a lot more know-how and money to set up. So, pros and cons.



Amy

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I was wrong about the conversion at the thank you page.
I test the offer again and I get a conversion if I accept the push subscription.
So is a push subscription offer (the payouts are very small ... similar to other offers of this types) ... I was missleading because on the network site the offer is a daiting SOI !?!?
Sorry about this.

No ... just the standard rules lander with a push subscription and a smartlink after.

I don't think I understand this ... like having exclusivity over an offer?

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I received some insight from my Zeydoo AM regarding that dating smartlink:

"It's dating survey offer so the main idea to collect some info about the user. After that it should recommend something to the user"

Yes you're right in that the survey lander is collecting push subs, but I was wondering what the purpose of the survey questions were because they would not increase push subscriptions. As it turns out, these survey questions aren't the typical "fake" ones on the typical dating survey lander that are designed just to presell and increase desire in the visitor. These survey questions are PRE-QUALIFYING questions that will decide which offer they'll get sent to when they click "continue" on the thank you page. This isn't a new concept in the lead gen world but I'm impressed nonetheless.

No I mean to actually stop being an affiliate and start being an offer owner (aka advertiser).

Advertisers have a whole set of headaches they need to deal with that we affiliates don't. They need to figure out how to create a funnel and monetize the leads, and how much to pay to the aff network so the math works out for everyone involved. They need to constantly monitor stats to figure out if lead quality is good enough. And if they're selling the leads they'll need to find enough buyers to take on the leads generated by affiliates. Etc. Etc. Etc.



Amy

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Glad that you could get the info from the AM directly and cleared the confusion. Looks like I wasn't exactly right with my explanation

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That's new for me as well - because like you, I've seen too many fake adult survey landers. They've been around since I was running adult in 2014. I wouldn't have thought to ask, but something just didn't make sense and I knew networks aren't stupid (usually!) Putting fake adult survey questions in front of completely unrelated offers would qualify as stupid. It's neat that the network's actually using the survey answers to decide which offers to redirect each user to.



Amy

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Indeed! I tried this approach myself with my landers quite a few times. So real questions that I actually used to segment the users and sent them to offers that should match the preferences... long story short, somehow I was never able to reach better results this way. It did have some positive effect on the lead quality though, but eventually I dropped these attempts and focused on volume instead

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Interestingly enough, the smartlink was redirecting users NOT just to adult sites, but to other offer types like insurance as well.

I'd imagine you were mainly dealing with adult offers?



Amy

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