$100 Million - The journey from affiliate marketer to millions (18)
$100 Million - The journey from affiliate marketer to millions
Foreword: I had the pleasure of doing a one on one interview with Robert Gryn founder of Codewise,
The interview with the $100 million dollar man, Robert Gryn – founder of Codewise
SStarting your own business can sound real daunting, especially if you are used to promoting other people’s products as an affiliate. You know, where you simply run traffic, and collect commissions and that’s it. Yea this way of living is rewarding, you can travel wherever you want, and do as you please. But if you STOP, there won’t be any money to live off, the wheels will stop turning with you.
That’s why I’ve been exploring the land of starting your own product, service or store. In other words REAL business. As I said it, this is extremely daunting, because there’s just SO MANY variables. For example, e-commerce is exploding right now with a lot of affiliate marketers used to cloaking Google and Facebook or running Pin Submits on Zeropark switching to creating their own stores, and selling drop shipped items from china.
They might be doing this because there’s less and less opportunities in affiliate marketing (many disagree), or because they simply are getting bored of having to turn the wheel every single day, and looking to build a sell-able asset that can run if they decide to take a break for a month. This is NOT affiliate marketing, this is the next level many grow up to. In the world of e-com, you need to look after logistics, customer service, keeping a healthy merchant account, accounting, responsibilities after responsibilities.
I’ve decided to reach out to an old friend, you might have heard of him, he’s the founding father of Zeropark and Voluum, the revolutionary tracker used by internet marketers all over the world. He came from employee, and today heads one of the biggest self financed startups in Poland. Here’s the guy on the biggest billboard in Poland.
What’s the story behind Codewise, the company behind Zeropark and Voluum?
Codewise originally wasn’t my company, it was founded by 3 other guys and it was destined to be a rather typical outsourcing gig. In 2011 I approached them along with a bunch of other Polish outsourcing companies asking for a quote for my first startup idea. Codewise came back with the most reasonable offer and so our cooperation began. With time I came up with the idea for Zeropark and we worked on the two projects in parallel. Things seemed to be going well and we first did a minor share exchange. A while later we did a more sizable exchange after which I came to own a large chunk of Codewise. Keep in mind that during this whole time I was running a rather large one man affiliate operation doing on average $300,000 revenue per month. I used the profits to keep Codewise afloat as we hired people and continued to work on 2 projects that weren’t profitable. 0
At some point in 2012 I started to feel that I didn’t enjoy working with two of the co-founders. One of them had a bit of a power trip being CEO of Codewise the other was not very competent as CTO. The day before my first holiday, our then CTO made a blunder that cost me over $300,000 within the span of 4 hours – this was a blunder on Blitzcliq – our internal tracker we built to automate my media buys. I stormed out of the office without a word got a pack of cigarettes even though I didn’t smoke. The 3rd co-founder (my future CTO) found me in the park, we talked and we decided that we need to somehow boot them out. So we met with my lawyer and planned a hostile takeover. We quickly realized that without my funding Codewise would go bankrupt within 3 weeks. I arranged a meeting with everyone and my opening line was “I’ve arranged this meeting today because I will be ending my cooperation with Codewise.” Silence and shock. They had no idea it was coming. Mind you, this was one of the most difficult things I’ve done in my life. I vividly recall washing my face with cold water in the bathroom minutes before saying “You son of a bitch, you can do this! You have to do this!”. They knew this was the end, we called recess and went away for 2 hours for both sides to come up with terms.
2 hours later we sit down again. With forced confidence and a wry smile the two guys demand $250,000 each claiming that Zeropark was on the verge of becoming something huge — they really had no idea to what extent this was true, nor did I at that time. Zeropark hadn’t even broken even at that point. My lawyer laughs and makes an unprofessional remark. I ask him to stop.
I tell them calmly that I will pay them $50,000 each, no more. Tense discussions continue, they know they have no leverage. Taking us to court would be costly and a massive waste of time, and without my know-how the company wouldn’t be worth a thing. They accept. Emotions are high and things are moving quickly. We find a notary that was working on the weekend and went to sign over the company to me. The guys were in tears, they were losing their baby which they founded well before I joined. It was intense. We signed the documents. Legally it was done. Codewise was mine. All I had to do was wire the money. Bartek (the last remaining partner) and I went to get sushi, and I recall wiring the $100,000 sitting in the restaurant with an ear to ear smile on my face saying “I can’t believe we fucking did it. The company is ours!”. We went back to the office feeling elated.
The next day came what I felt was to an extent an even more challenging task. It was Monday and at that time we had around 8 developers. How was I to convince these guys that 2 of the co-founders had just been ousted and that a company that was losing money was still going to be a secure place to work? Mind you, to hire these guys we had to lie about how well we were doing to create the illusion of job security when we had no clue of what the future held. To a great extent we really didn’t quite know what we were doing. I rehearsed what I was going to say so that I wouldn’t falter. I showed up at 630am before anyone came in and one by one I took them aside to tell them what had happened, convinced them that this was for the best and guaranteed that their jobs are safe. This took place in January 2013. I consider it the time when I truly took the reins at Codewise, got my shit together, and started moving the company in the right direction. I had no other choice.
Fast forward a few years up until the end of 2015. I’m facing an extreme burnout — something which I expand on later in this piece. Psychological, physical, I’m not sleeping, I can’t cope with the scale and the stress that comes with it. By now we’re a very profitable company and I no longer run any affiliate campaigns. We have a very successful second product, Voluum. Yet I’m in the worst place I’ve ever been in my mind, I’m breaking down. My partner is away in Japan for a month long vacation and I’m having internal battles debating if I’m able and willing to continue with this. He gets back and says he needs to meet with me outside the office. I’m nervous. I meet him and immediately feel that something isn’t right. We sit down and he straight away tells me that he’s made up his mind, he’s leaving the company. I’m in shock. I’ve been having these same thoughts.. Wtf is going on? This is the end. He explains that his stress runs in parallel with our success. The size of the company is greater than he ever wanted it to be, his role has evolved into something that’s taken him away from what he loves; coding. He’s become a manager, he no longer is excited about what he does and it’s taken a heavy toll on his life outside of work. He isn’t happy. He said he wasn’t able to relax during his month long trip. I completely understood him.. Having felt the same for the past months. I always knew that if he ever left I’d be doomed alone. I was convinced that this is it. Here are two guys, owners of a self-funded company that many are envious of. One that rakes in millions of dollars in profits and they both want out. It goes to show that only the surface of success is seen by outsiders. You’ve probably seen the iceberg analogy of success where people only see the tip; it’s completely true. There is more shit, pain and stress below the surface than you can imagine.
I told Bartek that I wanted to sit down with him upon his return to discuss my departure. He was also surprised. We decided that there are two options. 1) I buy him out and continue running the company. 2) He stays on until we sell the company together. I’m not sure what happened, but my competitive character kicked in and I decided that I wanted to try to run the show myself. I found that I always functioned best in situations where it was do or die. Situations which would cripple most people. Diving into the deep end was somewhat of a specialty of mine even though I didn’t always know how to swim. We negotiated terms and he was out. He had his farewell at our December monthly company meeting during which I broke down sobbing saying goodbye to him in front of the company. It was heavier than I had anticipated.
During our negotiations I had initiated dialogue with a few investment banks that had expressed interest in selling the company for us. I went to LA in January 2016 to meet one of them to get an idea of where Codewise stands in terms of a potential exit. They presented me with a 100 page dossier including a very detailed analysis of our company based on the metrics we provided, as well as comparisons to similar companies they’ve sold. This led to an estimated sale value which blew my fucking mind. The range in which we were valued reached into the mid 9 figures. I couldn’t believe it. At this point I had a very healthy distance to money, practically no emotional attachment to it. I told the bankers this, and that I’m not ready to sell yet. They said they hear this from every entrepreneur they speak with, but when they hand them a check with 8 zeros, it changes everybody’s mind. I said that I wasn’t ready to sell. Truthfully what I thought to myself was.. “If I was to get $100M+ in cash I would lose my fucking mind. I’m 29 years old, wtf will I do? I don’t have the energy to start another company.” but mainly I knew I’d lose my mind and I couldn’t let that happen. This was a critical moment in my career because I fully realized what we had built, and I saw that the potential value of it was far greater than I could have dreamed. I was on the the verge of building a self-funded unicorn. Holy shit. More importantly I realized that I’m not in this game to exit for a few hundred mil, there’s something deeper that keeps me going.
I got back to the office with a new fire, and that fire was lit right under my ass. It was do or die. Bartek was gone and I only realized just how much was on his shoulders when he was gone. I completely underestimated it. Somewhere from deep within a new Rob emerged and started crushing it. I honestly didn’t recognize myself in the beginning.. I had become a master of execution and delegation. Figuring out step by step how to fill in the hole that was left behind. I soon realized that I am able to keep this show on the road on my own and it was the sweetest victory in my career.
Fast forward to October 2015. I turn 30 and receive two awards (Fast 50 #1 & Big 5 #1) at the Deloitte Fast 50 gig for fastest growing company in Central Europe with a growth rate of 13,052% over the past 4 years. My parents were there, it was beautiful.
“..no one else comes close to the 13,052% recorded by Polish tech marketing hub, Codewise, which leads not only the Fast 50 ranking itself but also the “Big Five” listing of larger companies.”
– Alastair Teare, CEO of Deloitte Central Europe
Last week we just moved into Codewise’ 5th office except this one we designed, built and planned starting two years ago. It’s a 3000 sqm (27,000 square feet) space designed for 250 people with a gym, soundproof music room and generally designed for life and not just work. Not to mention that Uber has offices below us.
I’m now in the best place I’ve ever been in my life, both personally and professionally. With this intro I wanted to get across that the road to success is a rocky and unpredictable one. Whatever the outcome may be for you I know it’ll be worth it. You’ll grow, develop and mature like never before. You need to remember that this is the priceless bit of the entrepreneurial journey. Money is secondary.
What made you want to stop being an affiliate and create your own business?
I probably wouldn’t say that I suddenly stopped wanting to be an affiliate it was a gradual and mindful process where I started to ask questions and wonder if this was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Affiliate marketing was the foundation that led me to wanting and feeling able to start my own business. When Codewise finally became profitable I slowly phased out all my media buying even though it was practically running on autopilot via CPA buys. Having said that, I didn’t get any joy out of running the campaigns, it became completely unfulfilling, a pure grind at some point. If you’re at that point yourself, you seriously need to start asking yourself if this is what you want to do. As you mature, and realize that money isn’t as important as you once thought, you realize that success isn’t the amount of money you make, or how famous you are, it’s the process of doing and building something that you’re passionate about — something that is bigger than yourself.
What were the biggest challenges?
The biggest challenge was leaving the affiliate mindset behind. The mindset of instant gratification, it’s addicting, and it’s comparable to gambling. I can relate having had a rather serious gambling problem when I was 19. I call it the shift from instant gratification to distant gratification, it almost feels like reprogramming your brain, it’s not easy and it takes time. There’s really nothing quite like affiliate marketing in terms of a quick potential return that you can then scale, it’s thrilling. Building a business can be very frustrating if you’re still stuck in that mindset, it takes time, you don’t see any results for months, you’re to an extent sailing into the abyss not knowing what awaits you. It’s intimidating the first few times, and when you start out your doubts and projections will typically lead you to failure or stagnant growth. Zeropark was my second startup, my first failed miserably, I won’t even mention it other than I learned more during the first than at any school or any job I’ve ever had. It’s all a bit like a role playing game, where you level up as you go, taking hits here and there, and as you gain experience you’re able to take on greater challenges more comfortably. Failure is part of the game. The winners grow with failure, the losers get crushed by failure. That’s what distinguishes real entrepreneurs from regular folk.
On that note, I used to be a semi-pro gamer (Counter-strike & Day of Defeat) and I played a lot of strategy games. I feel that this experience was also key to my success as I “gamify” everything that I do. Money is sort of a high score, or a resource/tool that you can use to grow further. I mention this as another challenge is the emotional attachment to money that I had for many years, something that most people never grow out of. It’s also called poor man’s thinking, a mentality based on scarcity. You will never get very far with this mindset, it’s prevalent among most people. If you’re interested in this topic I recommend reading Rich Dad Poor Dad. I managed to shake this scarcity based thinking relatively early which resulted in not having problems dropping $30,000 on exhibiting with Voluum at Affiliate Summit East ‘13 in Philadelphia when the platform wasn’t even ready, nor did I really just have the funds lying around to splurge out like this. We continue to do this, having dropped nearly $300,000 at Dmexco this year. People often ask me if I get a ROI on the shows, I say I don’t know, I don’t measure it, but what I do know is that one good meeting could pay for everything 10 fold, and it’s happened before. It’s this type of action that has put Zeropark and Voluum ahead of the competition. Where our competitors often don’t even exhibit to “save money”, we go balls out and rake in the winnings while they stand on the sidelines with their scarcity approach. I go as far as coining this method to madness as CDD (conference driven development). If you don’t have pressure to execute, you by default take on a more lax approach. CDD forces us to work harder, faster and smarter with a looming deadline of a massive conference where we drop big money. You have to put yourself out there to make it big, it’s not going to magically happen on its own. Spend money to make money is what I like to say. I’ve made people in our company lean towards this type of thinking, obviously it’s a bit different when you’re not the owner, but I call myself “The Enabler”, I grant anyone any expenditure that I feel at some point might benefit Codewise.
What were your biggest mistakes?
Not delegating. This relates to the previous question, as delegating is one of the greatest challenges for any entrepreneur, at least in the early stages. To some it comes easier, but it’s a skill that everyone has to learn one way or another. It’s the simple thought process and projection of “nobody will do it as well as I will”. Then before you know it, you are the bottleneck of the whole operation. What you also fail to realize is that it is quite likely that no one will do things as well as you from the get go. However, if you never entrust anyone to try, they will never learn, and never be able to become better than you at executing that certain task that you were hesitant to delegate in the first place. This is often the hardest for perfectionists. Believe me, being a perfectionist is not a strength, it’s a massive weakness. It’s a hindrance to becoming a proficient executor. You will always delay things, and not delegate tasks instead of just getting shit done and charging ahead of your competitors. I used to be that perfectionist, and I became mindful of it, it took years of self-awareness to get where I am today. I still to this day have that perfectionist voice creep up in my head, you just need to know when to ignore it.
Click here to continue reading the full interview at iAmAttila.com >>
Leave your thoughts, questions and comments below 
Holy shit Rob, this is amazing! Thanks Attila for doing this interview!
Wow. A killer interview, and one of the best I've read in a long time. Great job.
Excellent interview!
Great interview indeed, didn't know the story of "Codewise" was so dramatic.
Great read, Attila, you're a killer!
Success leaves clues, people, success leaves clues!
Love this interview and the Rob's journey to success is truly amazing!
Interview of the century. Fantastic story.
Love this interview, thank you.
Originally Posted by manutv
Originally Posted by simant
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Originally Posted by buck johnson
Amazing story, truly incredible.
Love reading these types of stories and interviews. It really shows what it takes to get to the top and illustrates how that path is hardly ever a straight line. Thanks for sharing!
Rob's story emphasizes once again What The Cost of Ambition is and How it Pays Back!
A must read.
Great interview. Thanks
Amazing
great post " iAmAttila."
Indeed Interview of the Year
That was freaking amazing. I already told you in our mastermind group, but dude that's seriously an incredible interview. Thanks!
Yeah have to echo the other comments, a seriously good read
It takes a very strong mindset and a hell of a lot of sacrifice to achieve what Rob has with Codewise, a brutal but very rewarding journey and at such a young age too.
Thanks for the kind words guys and thank you Attila for getting me to do this. I feel I will continue writing in the near future having seen how many of you can relate and take away from my experience as there's a lot more where that came from. It's a blessing to be in a position to help anyone going through similar struggles.
All the best,
Rob
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