Benchmark question for dating pros on Facebook (men's market) (8)

This is a question for all you Facebook marketers who’ve spent a lot of money over time, promoting offers in the men’s dating market, specifically men who are 25 plus, and who live in the US, UK, Australia, and New Zealand…English speaking men who are interested in dating sites. This is for desktop traffic, right now I’m not interested in mobile since I make most of my money via follow up email.

Since I’m the product owner, I act as my own “affiliate” driving traffic to my own offers, and measuring success based on cost per single opt in. My goal is building an email list. My current opt in page is here:

http://www.thehighachiever.com/exper...ractive-sg.php

…and it gets an average opt in rate of 5.6% from Newsfeed Ads with pictures of attractive women that say “If you like women, you will love this! Click here…” Unique ad CTR is 4.1% over one month’s time, and average cost per unique click is $.09 US ( 9 cents a click).

I’m targeting men who like Match.com, Eharmony, Zoosk, JDate, etc., 25 and over. The ad goal is clicks to website, with optimized CPM. This is Desktop Traffic only.

In the first three days of the campaign, I’ve had single opt ins as low as 60 cents apiece, then settling out for about two weeks between $1.10 and $1.60, then climbing from there. When I've rested the campaign for two weeks, this cycle repeats.

What I’d be curious to know from you experienced Facebook marketers who have spent money over time in the men’s dating market, is what’s the lowest cost per single opt that settles out over time, you think is realistic to shoot for, i.e. a benchmark?

Obviously the answer varies by targeted segment (Match and JDate have done better than Zoosk for me), but based on what I’ve been able to achieve recently, I’m curious to know if you experienced Facebook marketers would consider my cost per single opt in submit laugably high, decent, great, etc. and what would you recommend for getting and keeping it as low as possible over time, while preserving the targeting? There is a lot of quality traffic in this market on Facebook, and I feel like I’m leaving a lot of money on the table.

Some other (good) factors to keep in mind are I can completely control and test what’s on the landing page, create pre-sell pages before the lander, add an offer to it to offset cost of lead, etc. I own and control the whole follow up system and funnel. Sooooo, if you were me but had your years of experience spending money for this market, what cost per single opt in email submit would you shoot for on Facebook and what are your recommendations for getting and keeping it as low as possible for this targeting?

The countries you are targeting are always going to be on the high end of CPC prices. We are also moving into the 4th quarter which can show 50% price increases on FB, due to big brands coming in and spending their budgets for Christmas and the end of the year.

$0.60 per lead is good for NZ. $1.60 is ok for US, AU, UK. However since you are getting photos of "sexy" ladies approved, you should be aiming to hit around $0.50 for NZ, and then the early $1 mark for US, UK and AU.

First thing I recommend doing is only using one country per campaign. Then try create campaigns based on individual targets. E.g. Zoosk "Like Zoosk? Then You Have To See This...".Another thing worth trying would be to go down the quiz angle instead of asking for the email address straight up.

But the biggest factor is getting the right photo approved, if you can get a sexy gem approved you should be seeing constant sub $1 leads. Facebook hates dating affiliates, so you need to be cautious here.

We don't do dating, but in terms of CTR outperformance on Facebook, all things being equal, roughly 70% of this is driven by the image and roughly 30% is driven by ad copy and targeting.

Since you are the offer owner, you will have both a pricing advantage as well as a slight compliance advantage (to the extent that FB doesn't dump you in the same red flag ban happy bucket as other affiliates). But do be careful as FB has really made a really big effort to clean up the consumer experience for its ads over the past 12 months.

Great advice guys, thanks. You know, this gives me the idea that it might be possible to work with one or two selected affiliates who really know Facebook and dating, and can keep an account open. I have actually “fuzzied” my material up to where it’s not dating per se but an “Unusual Experiment Where An Attractive Woman Will Send You An Attractive Photo Once A Day” as the opt in bribe to the right segments—the magic is in the segments.

I’ve toyed with the idea of approaching a few networks with this offer, but that opens up a whole can of worms for policing affiliates and taking on liability for less scrupulous affiliates (an acquaintance of mine, Josh Bezone actually got sued by Oprah because his affiliates were using her photo in his diet offer, and saying “Oprah Recommends…” Took him awhile to rebuild after that debacle…the punks from WickedFire really can ruin your day…or year), and I really don’t want to deal with that. Too many layers, and it’s much more enjoyable for me to interact with professional affiliates one on one, guys I’d drink whisky and tell war stories with if I met them in person. Plus, I can share all my Facebook experience with them, they can combine it with theirs and run with it, and this is not really possible when dealing with a lot of affiliates.

What do you think would be an attractive payout for an affiliate of this nature, and how do you think it should be structured? I would think a payout based on cost per single opt in, plus percentage of sales of my products over the long haul would be a good structure so the affiliate could profit on both the opt in, but have incentive to send good traffic. If they knew how to do email, I’d even consider sharing the opt in email list with them, since it won’t affect what I do over the long haul.

Also, since I’m in control of the offer, and would only be working with a few affiliates, I’d have no issue letting them host the opt in form code on their servers, and testing landing pages as long as those pages let the visitor know what he was opting in for. Obviously, I’d never, ever do this with a large number of affiliates…do you guys think this is a good idea even for a select few, or am I entrusting too much?

I’ve got a lot of “cute” photos of girls that have done very well on the Facebook newsfeed, without crossing the line to overtly sexy…close up photos of smiling, attractive women seem to do very well, and I’d share what I have with the affiliates. Really, to sum it up, and taking into account everything I said, what do you guys think would be an irresistible offer for a professional, long term affiliate marketer who is in it for the long haul? There IS a lot of profit to be made here for all sides…

Originally Posted by Mr Green

The countries you are targeting are always going to be on the high end of CPC prices. We are also moving into the 4th quarter which can show 50% price increases on FB, due to big brands coming in and spending their budgets for Christmas and the end of the year.

$0.60 per lead is good for NZ. $1.60 is ok for US, AU, UK. However since you are getting photos of "sexy" ladies approved, you should be aiming to hit around $0.50 for NZ, and then the early $1 mark for US, UK and AU.

First thing I recommend doing is only using one country per campaign. Then try create campaigns based on individual targets. E.g. Zoosk "Like Zoosk? Then You Have To See This...".Another thing worth trying would be to go down the quiz angle instead of asking for the email address straight up.

But the biggest factor is getting the right photo approved, if you can get a sexy gem approved you should be seeing constant sub $1 leads. Facebook hates dating affiliates, so you need to be cautious here.

Originally Posted by johna5150

Great advice guys, thanks. You know, this gives me the idea that it might be possible to work with one or two selected affiliates who really know Facebook and dating, and can keep an account open. I have actually “fuzzied” my material up to where it’s not dating per se but an “Unusual Experiment Where An Attractive Woman Will Send You An Attractive Photo Once A Day” as the opt in bribe to the right segments—the magic is in the segments.

I’ve toyed with the idea of approaching a few networks with this offer, but that opens up a whole can of worms for policing affiliates and taking on liability for less scrupulous affiliates (an acquaintance of mine, Josh Bezone actually got sued by Oprah because his affiliates were using her photo in his diet offer, and saying “Oprah Recommends…” Took him awhile to rebuild after that debacle…the punks from WickedFire really can ruin your day…or year), and I really don’t want to deal with that. Too many layers, and it’s much more enjoyable for me to interact with professional affiliates one on one, guys I’d drink whisky and tell war stories with if I met them in person. Plus, I can share all my Facebook experience with them, they can combine it with theirs and run with it, and this is not really possible when dealing with a lot of affiliates.

What do you think would be an attractive payout for an affiliate of this nature, and how do you think it should be structured? I would think a payout based on cost per single opt in, plus percentage of sales of my products over the long haul would be a good structure so the affiliate could profit on both the opt in, but have incentive to send good traffic. If they knew how to do email, I’d even consider sharing the opt in email list with them, since it won’t affect what I do over the long haul.

Also, since I’m in control of the offer, and would only be working with a few affiliates, I’d have no issue letting them host the opt in form code on their servers, and testing landing pages as long as those pages let the visitor know what he was opting in for. Obviously, I’d never, ever do this with a large number of affiliates…do you guys think this is a good idea even for a select few, or am I entrusting too much?

I’ve got a lot of “cute” photos of girls that have done very well on the Facebook newsfeed, without crossing the line to overtly sexy…close up photos of smiling, attractive women seem to do very well, and I’d share what I have with the affiliates. Really, to sum it up, and taking into account everything I said, what do you guys think would be an irresistible offer for a professional, long term affiliate marketer who is in it for the long haul? There IS a lot of profit to be made here for all sides…

@cmdeal

Thanks, sending you a PM…your recommendations would be very helpful.

I did want to comment on your advice to meet them in person, because you and I are 100% on the same page with that. It’s ironic how, although we make money sitting behind our computers, we can’t really make it until we get out into the business world and meet people face to face, hang out with them, have a few drinks at the bar with them, tell stories with them, etc. It’s the building of what I call “relationship equity,” the most valuable equity you can have in business (or personal).

I’ve been going to direct marketing events since 1998 (and I was dead-butt broke in 1998 but found the money to go anyways) and I very quickly figured out that if I wanted to survive and prosper in this industry, I had to go to the events. Something magic happens when you meet people in person, stay in contact with them, and they become your friends as you all achieve time in grade together, and advance. You also very quickly get to know what the turds and shysters look and sound like and I’ve avoided a lot of heartbreak by meeting these people in person, and been able to pass on the “no go” signal to friends who’ve asked me about them over the years. Those personal relationships have also allowed me to vet others (by making a phone call to friends I know who are the real deal), and find out if what they claim is true, and you cannot get that by staying behind the computer.

If there was one commonality I could point to that exists in people who were the big thing at the time, but dropped off the face of the earth and went broke, it’s they quit coming to the events, thought they were too smart for the room, turned down speaking opportunities because they felt the audience was beneath them, then suddenly realized this business had passed them by and they had no relationships to fall back on.

To further your point, I think meeting face to face is more important than ever in today’s digital world (I have jumped on planes on short notice to do so and it’s paid off) and, in fact, essential for success in this business. There is no substitute for building a network of friends over time who get and stay successful and you have to get out to the real world to do it.

(Quick example, I met Joe Polish way back in 1998, kept in touch ever since, and if I ever need a referral or recommendation, I can call Joe and he can call me…can’t believe I’ve known that goofy dude for 16 years, and 16 years in this business leads to a lot of “remember when’s,” good water under the bridge, and two way access to insider information neither of us could get if we’d stayed behind the computer).

Originally Posted by cmdeal

Yes, that is a sound approach.

Unfortunately, the "typical" affiliate mentality can be one of very short term thinking and "doing whatever it takes" to get a commission. Many times over, such a mentality--when taken to its extreme--has resulted in legitimate offer owners getting screwed because their affiliates really crossed the line in terms of compliance.

We don't do dating, but almost 95% of of our activities are direct with the end offer owners/advertisers who do not work though any affiliate network. These offer owners/advertisers don't work though an affiliate network because they cannot afford to be in a situation where they have no idea who is pushing their offers, what messaging is being used, and whether these messages are compliant, either with a traffic channel, or more seriously, with State and Federal law.

I strongly encourage you to meet--in person--with the small number of affiliates with whom you want to partner. If you PM me, I can certainly give you my recommendations for people you should consider, but definitely meet them in person and make sure that you share the same outlook and approach on both a professional and personal level. I personally am a big believer in face to face interaction, even in today's highly virtualised age, and I believe it has served me well.

In terms of commission pricing, you will be at an advantage since you can cut out the affiliate networks of their typical 25%. You will have to offer something competitive, but my sense is that you have a funnel with high forecast visibility so that you can quickly determine a commission level that is highly attractive to both your small number of affiliates and to yourself.

Hahaha, you have definitely met Mr. Miz and know him well...I have only known him half as long as I've known Joe (yep, it was Yanik's 2006 Underground Event where we hung out first, Dave)....and I will definitely be in London to meet all you guys in person...

Originally Posted by maynzie

Definitely a great point man, tradeshows and meetups can blow your business up to another level. You going to make it to London? What if I can push Dconstrukt to make it too haha its close to his favourite city oh amsterdam !