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Follow Along - From Negative to Break Even! Facebook + Dating (52)

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First off, sorry for my bad english!

Well, I would like to get right to the point. This is my first follow along campaign so please help!

Here is my setup:

1. Traffic Source: Facebook
2. Affiliate Network: Wolf Storm Media.
3. Offer: Be2
4. Country: Canada
5. Demographic: Female 40+
6. Tracking: P202

I selected 4 original images. 1 ad title + 1 ad description I selected from SAN and launched 4 campaign. Within each camp there are 3 duplicate ads. I target 40-44 age bracket and the demo size is 70K. I submitted the ads and they are approved within a minute! Attached is the lander I used for this campaign. I placed $1.00 for the bidding and the daily budget is set to $5. Please let me know if I am doing OK.

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Update: I got the approval notice just after a minute of submission and saw the footprint of facebook in my p202 spy tab but still no sign of traffic. It looks like it takes time.

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I submitted additional 3 campaigns. Now I have 7 camps with 3 ads inside. Only the images between camps are different. How many camps is OK to submit for a demo size of 74K?

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Update: 30 minutes after submission. I got my first click on one of my ads and it looks like the ball started to roll.

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My other 3 camps just got approved only after 10 minutes from submission. Now I have 7 camp*3 ads = 21 ads running.

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Q: How many impression I need for each ads to decide if I should pause the ad or let it run? 4K, 6K, 8K?

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I paused almost all the ads! The highest CTR I got was %0.07. I let it run to see how it performs. I am preparing to launch new campaigns. Here is the stat for Nov. 7 (Paris Time)

Spend:$28.101
Revenue: $4.00
Net Profit: -24.10

Here is the p202 stat for my LP:


It looks like the launch time is very important. How can I find the best time for this demo & offer?

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I'd recommend following this guide for when to cut stats: http://stmforum.com/forum/showthread...he-Winning-Ads

Not bad for your first few campaigns! I'd concentrate on getting better images in there, and boosting the conversion rate from your landing page. Get some more landers and offers running and start split-testing!

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That was a great guide on how & when cut the low performing ads. Actually I did in the same way before even reading the guide! I 've read about those guidelines here & there in this great forum. I am going to focus on ads part first to get the highest CTR as possible and then get into LP & offers and test those stuff. At this point my only focus will be on how to achieve that glory CTR. Is there anything wrong with my targeting and segmentation? should I remove the age targeting and broaden my demo size by targeting the whole demo from 40-65?

You are right! one of my ads CTR was 0.061 but I didn't pause it and today it is up to 0.095. Check the below image for more stats:

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Well, I selected that ad and created 10 different variations. Sharpen, Blurred, Borders, Hues, ... I am going to lanuch 5 camps with 2 ads inside (Dupe) to see how it goes.

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Considering the demo size is 74K, how the ad-blindness kicks in? Should I target another age bracket for these image variations or stick to the previous demo?

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You need to drop your max bid at this point. Your current CPC is half of your max bid so feel free to drop your max bid down to around 70c and let the ad run some more.

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Well, I decided to target another age bracket for these image variations ad. I also paused the camps and after the ads are approved I will run them in one shot. Demo size is a little lower than the previous (66K) but they are new to this ad image (At least I hope so!). Age group is now 45-49.

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I am not sure about this. It is not recommended to touch the cpc until the dust settles down and you get into a stable phase. (Please correct me if I am wrong) Although as the ads continue to receive clicks and the CTR is rising or is stable, FB will decrease the CPC (I hope it will).

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Here is the stat for Nov. 08

Spend: $17.32
Revenue: $4.00
Profit: -13.32

My P202 LP analysis:


LP CTR has been dropped from 22.50% to 13.33%. Why the CTR has been dropped that much?

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I just paused those ad variations. I couldn't be able to notice any significant difference in CTR byt adding those visual cues.

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I created another 5 camps. I increased to demo size by targeting the 40+ age group. the demo size is now 300K.

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You don't have any kind of sample size at all with 30 clicks to the LP unfortunately. With 4 Clicks, you're at 13.33% CTR, with just 2 clicks more, you'd be at 20%, with just 4 more at 26%. The stats are based on pretty much a handful clicks so far, therefore there are only slightly, VERY basic trends to be seen - nothing to judge based on in my opinion. Also generally spoken, nobody can tell you WHY your LP CTR dropped, could be coincidence, could be burnout (not likely at this number of clicks), could be just anything.

Compared to your previous stats with 40 views and 9 clicks, you're actually having a difference of 5 clicks. As said, 5 clicks is too thin to talk about a reasonable drop in performance. As you're running with 4 images, you've effectively spent about $4.3 per image which is just slightly above what your offer pays you. 1 conversion could make it -100% ROI or +100% ROI.

Are your ads completely different in terms of image style? If so, collect some more data and see where the potential could be at. Try to replicate / find more similar images to those after having more data.

Given your latest post about creating another 5 campaigns, I would suggest you to find a plan and stick to it to get a bit of a 'structure' into your testing / campaigns. Try to find a pattern that somehow works for testing, collect data and take it from there. Let the data decide and don't panic after some small drops / gains in CTR or performance. Let the number do the decisions

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@fjk87, Yes you are totally right! The data is very thin on LP side to decide what & why is working and not working. I am now more focused on ads CTR. I didn't understand exactly what you mean by "Image Style". I am testing different images in different campaigns.

Is that increasing the demo size a wise decision or I should stick to more segmentation for testing the ad images? Also is it possible to elaborate more on the pattern you mention in your last paragraph?

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Image style: young guy, older guy, thin / fat, rich / average looking, different style of clothes, different style of guy (think bad boy / family guy etc.).

Patterns means: like a basic approach you take for campaigns. Just say for example 5 images, all same headline - all 5 images are totally different style of pictures. You see the average looking fat guy outperforms the younger bad boy. You try to find more images similar to the one performing best, rinse and repeat.

It's basically avoid jumping from launching campaign A with a demo of 70k and 5 images with 1 headline/copy to launching another campaign (while still being a newbie in Facebook) to a totally different demo of 250k, with 10 images and 3 headlines/3 copys.

I don't do much Facebook, but for instance on other sources my setup would be: 15 creatives to start with. 5 different styles / copts with 3 different images each. 2 landers for the start, 2 offers. Let it run a bit, see what creatives perform best at what LP, see what offers performs better, cut it down and try to replicate that winning combinations.

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basically I didn't chose my images based on those styles. It looks like I was missing this part. I am not changing the title & description they are all the same across my campaigns just the images are different. I just launched 5 camps will bald smiley guys as the ad images. But it looks like I needed to test different styles. one camp for each style. Thank you for the tip

I was targeting 74K demo (40-44 females in canada) & I decided to make it more broad by targeting a larger age bracket to get some more data.

At this point I am not looking at how the offers are converting I am just doing my homework to get my feet wet in how to gain those CTR for my ads I can then focus on conversion & ROI stuff later on. Please advise if this is a wrong method.

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Best advice I can honestly give you (based on a couple of posts I've seen from you) is to read the book Cashvertising. You'll get a lot of info about marketing in general and how to market to your potential audience, how to create angles and how to find out problems your offer / marketing can solve for your potential clients and therefore makes them interested. It's an awesome read and I'd definitely recommend to read it, it'll certainly help a lot in giving you a couple of ideas how to market along with some basics about marketing, no matter on- or offline.

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I'd second that recommendation - Ca$hvertising is superb.

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are you all saying that targeting broad without choosing any interest is not working?

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I can barely reach 0.08% CTR on my ads. I have tested more than 60 images.

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Post some of your ads mate, we can give you better advice if we know what you are doing.

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I just got frustrated and deleted all the ads! I am starting over. Will post the ads here.

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^^ Never delete ads!!!

You never know how they would be of use in future.

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I tested 4 other images and CTR is still very low Here is the few of the images and the ad I've used for the test. Ad text is the same across the camps but the images are different.

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Here is the CTR report.

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It looks like I am throwing shit to the wall and I hope it sticks! something is missing. Looking for a mentor.

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But it is against facebook TOS for dating to call out ages in the ad title. Are you saying that my problem is in the title & ad body? But as far as I read in this forum, it is the ads images which contribute 90% to the ads CTR. I have tested those images in the screenshot in the past but was unable to shoot for 0.1+ CTR.

Calling out the demo, So I need to separate my demo into age brackets and then come up with separate ad for each age group.

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Totally my bad, I've been reading to many POF threads and thought yours was one too!

The first reply from an STMer on this thread mentioned "I'd recommend following this guide for when to cut stats: http://stmforum.com/forum/showthread...he-Winning-Ads"

You are making calls whether ads are good or not after 5 clicks. That is not enough to know anything.

Take a breath, and take one small step at a time. Test 4 completely different images, run them until they have generated enough data for statistical significance. Then pause them. Ignore CTRs for now. Pay attention to which image worked best and which one was the worst. Ask yourself the question why that may be. Then create a new test with your theory with another set of four images. Then go through this process with your ad copy.

So far you have not given us data to give you any credible feedback. This is your first campaign so use it as a learning process, you have plenty of time to enjoy profits later. Focus on getting the fundamentals right, and creating processing around your tests.

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"We have quality relationship minded singles"?
Serious?
You can do better than this.

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I am using those guidelines to cut the losers. 1500 impression and no click -> pause the ad. 5K impression and low CTR -> Pause the ad.

I am just following those guidelines on when to cut the ads. At this moment I am only focused on ads CTR not the LP CTR nor the Offer CVR. I even can't reach 0.1% ctr that stick for any of my ads.

I am doing exactly the way you mentioned. I am testing 4 different images in different campaigns with the same ad-title & ad-body. I let them run until they meet those limits as stated in that guide. That's the way I am running the camps. If there is anything I am missing or doing wrong, please let me know.

If I ignore the CTR, what should I consider to be the most important element? I am not sure if testing for the conversion is a good idea in the beginning as it costs too much with that high CPC rate. I need to lower my CPC first then shoot for conversion stuff & ROI.

What do you mean by "Working best or worst". In terms of CTR, LP CTR, Offer CVR, ROI?

Please let me know what sort of data is needed to get feedback on my process. It looks like it is more challenging and I am trying to keep myself motivated.

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Yes, but that would be great if you could at least give me something to work on.

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@yourfoothealth Sorry I mean ignore what the CTR looks like at initial stages. As in don't get disheartened by them, as long as they are improving all the time.

You say you are doing all the steps I mentioned...

What types of ads have you found had higher ctrs than the ads with lower ctrs? What conclusion did you come up with why the ctrs are higher than the others? If you answered these questions, your ad ctrs should be increasing in every test you make.

In terms of data we need to give you back, show us what ads link up to what ctrs.

In terms of ad copy inspiration look at the pof ad spy. Even if you can't call out your demographic in the your ad. Pay attention to the call to actions people use, and pain points. e.g lines like "Don't let age stop you from dating". "Click to join be2 now"

Come on man you have tried one ad copy...

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"Get This Guy Off Our Website"

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Seriously, this isn't ment to attack you, but read Ca$hvertising. You seem to be short on the principals of marketing, which the book will most likely help with a lot.

The idea in marketing is to provide something useful, yet unique - the SOLUTION / OPTION your targets (clients) could fall for. 'Quality Relationship Minded Singles' reads awful, is generic as hell and just a typical dating headline which is advertised to dead.

The most important thing is, Lorenzo gave you something to work on with the screenshot. Don't you notice any difference? No matter age groups call out is forbidden by Facebook, it's the principal behind it.

You can go on and market like 'Find the perfect soulmate', 'Find the men of your dreams' bla bla bla all utter bullshit that's generic and people see since years. How about taking the following approach (EXAMPLE): Find women who are interested in Pokemons. Yes, those damn sweet yet annoying Pokemons. Now try to target those on Facebook. How? Interests. Pokemon, Pikachu, Super duper ball pokemon, basically anything that's related to those pokemons. I'm not an expert in Pokemons, but with some research, you'll be able to find enough groups interested. While this audience might be a bit short on more mature women, the principal still applies.

After having found the Pokemon crazy women (audience), think how to market to them. 'Could he be your personal Pikachu?' 'Lonely Pokemon fan looks for the perfect Pokemona' or 'Find like-minded Pokemon single Men'. Anything goes that creates a relevancy to their interest.

While you might notice this example is a bit ironical and might feel pissed reading it first, think about it twice and get the idea behind it. It's about creating the impression that there are similar minded, trustworthy, nice, friendly and worth-to-love Men interested in Pokemons as well. This can be applied to ANY interest with the right angles, think cycling, think sport activities...

As for now, you're pretty much asking the questions and expect people to come up with straight angles and tactics to share. This is not gonna happen, no matter what you do. People invest time, money and resources to find these angles and certainly won't out something that's working for them.

A couple of examples to get you going...

1) Outdoor actives - 'Tired of hiking alone? Find Single Men who'd love to join you'
2) Single Parents - 'Single Mom? These Men understand your situation'
3) Any kind of hobby... think playing tennis, watching movies etc... 'Let him be your personal Ace'...
4) Interests, think collecting dollies... think art, think entertainment, basically anything goes.

Much rather than going very broad and generic as you did, try to create a bridge between your audience by applying this kind of ideas to them. You actually sell them a dating site, but you don't sell them in a generic way, much more than targeting their interests which no matter how they are, will catch their interest much more than a broad advertising. As a perfect example, think of an car insurance offers that advertises by 'This weeks promo: special 10% off for <your car manufacturer > drivers'. No matter you fall for it or not, this ad would certainly have caught your interest much more than '10% off car insurance'.

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"Inventory Shortage, One Guy Left"

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What does that mean?

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Something to get you working. Funny dating line. I bet it will get you 10x better CTR than your current ads.

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I am not trying to be rude, jerk or something like that. Sorry if I gave such a feeling. I just wanted some clue or something to help me get into the right track.

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Ohhhhhh, I thought you really want me to get kicked off the website. I am really bad in English! Sorryyyyyyyy.

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lol.
Sorry about miscommunication.

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If I ignore the CTR in initial stages, what am I supposed to monitor and pay good attention to in my ads?


I couldn't be able to find any pattern when I was targeting the whole age group in my ads but when I was targeting ny age groups, I could be able to see some lights. female in 60+ were more likely to click on the ads but less likely to convert. The CTR for that age group was around 0.12%. but when I removed that targeting and went broad I missed all that segmentation data. It looks like I need to get back to where I started first. targeting people based on their ages.

I will post all the ads along with the reports to get much more detailed feeback from you guys! This is really fantastic. I really appreciate that.

I have already started to study me demographic. I found a great article about "Why it's never too late to fall in love" in Oprah website. It is a real eye-opener. I took some notes and I think that it is going to help me to craft my angles. I can target females which fall into these categories:

Those who think it is too late to fall in love and they are too old.
Those who think it is impossible to find love.
Those who are afraid of starting a new relationship
..

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I have already started to read that book but it is like 207 pages and it took me some days to figure out what he is trying to say. BTW, great book! Thank you.

This is 100% correct. But the question is how those affiliates are running ads for about 150 days without targeting any angles or specific interest? I have already 50+ of those affiliates in my list who are killing in FB & Dating. How are they doing that? I haven't noticed any specific angles or interest targeting into their Ads or LPs but their ads are running for about 100+ day. How is this possible? I am not talking about those who are doing cloaking or doing shady stuff.

I am not asking people to give me their angles or anything like that. I am just trying to figure out how the system works and when I come up with a question I shoot it here.

Thank you for this list. They are great.

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Generally we divide dating, in particular, into two areas: "niche" dating (like Dr Ngo's "Pokemon" example - targeting a sub-group of people) and "broad" dating (targeting pretty much everyone).

"Broad" dating is very profitable, but MUCH harder to do. Maynzie wrote a great guide to it on POF over here - most of that advice will also apply on FB.

"Niche" dating is less profitable, but can still make you plenty of cash - and it's a lot easier to do, particularly if you're not super-experienced.

Unfortunately, one of the things that you'll need to master "broad" campaigns is experience, and quite a lot of it, unless you're very lucky. That's why people recommend starting on niche campaigns first. You can still make plenty of money there, and it'll give you the experience and the bankroll to move up to broader campaigns in time.

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@caurmen, looks like I am on the worng track. I shouldn't have targeted broad like I did in my previous camps. That is the reason why I am not getting that shiny CTR. But I know that there is some secrets (Not experience) running the broad campaigns without targeting any specific interest & angle that nobody is going to reveal.

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Start developing your own "secrets". These are the competitive edges that bring you profits.

I wrote this in another thread, but it might give you some insights:
http://stmforum.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post122880

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There is no secret. You just need to test more images/ads.

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You are too eager to make a profit, thats the problem, this really one of the best thread

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